Freedom & Modern Systems of Control

[northape]

Setting politics aside, I'd like to talk about where we are all heading and how to stay sane in this new world.
For context, the EU is once again trying to pass Chat Control. They are using basic psychology to get personal IDs on social platforms, and so on.
This isn't limited to just Europe and is the main direction of the West in general, as governments try to seize more control over the population.

What I'd like to hear are your ideas about how to cope with this development and what it means for the future. Right now I can't move to a developing country, and I'm afraid this change is going to reach there too. Do you see anything positive in it all? Maybe police would have more access to criminal data? But as we all know, power corrupts.

I feel like personal freedom should be a cornerstone of any society, but we get less and less of it everywhere.
What are your thoughts about this 1984-style future we're heading toward?

 

[blig-blug]

I'm afraid this thread will slide into politics fast.

As I see it:

The upsides are more State and police power. The downsides are more State and police power. Whether it's positive or negative depends entirely on one's politico-philosophical outlook.

I think these moves make sense from the perspective of the technical-industrial system, where the population should be managed as needed for better national outcomes. Enforcement moves from being punitive (you're punished if you misbehave) to preventive (misbehaving becomes harder and harder towards the ideal of becoming impossible). Every human society has punished what they have considered serious misbehavior, but none has managed to prevent it. To begin with, it didn't use to be possible. It still isn't, but we're getting closer.

I personally believe that humans aren't meant to live in societies larger than Dunbar's number. As long as a society is larger, it will need to bend human nature and the human spirit to accommodate it to its needs. This is what's happening, and it already has been happening for the last millennia, even though it's accelerating and almost every small, primitive society has been eliminated.

I don't see a escape from this, and it can't be reformed either. Its destruction would be a catastrophe with thousands of millions of victims, as the global population has grown so much that it depends on industry and technique for survival. So I can't advocate for that with a clean consciousness either.

To me, it's looking bleak. This is just a drop in the bucket. We humans got ourselves into a very, very big mess.

 

[Transform]

EU's Chat Control Proposal

The EU’s Chat Control, or Regulation on Child Sexual Abuse Material (CSAM) detection, aims to curb online child abuse through mandatory scanning of private communications. Introduced in May 2022 as “Chat Control 2.0,” it expands on voluntary scanning by services like Gmail and Facebook...

captaincompliance.com

For reference

 

[dithyramb]

I don't see such a future inevitable. In the whole world there is a war going on between fascism/totalitarianism and the people. The people are rising as well, not just the global fascist forces. As an example, in the country that I live in, there is an explicit attempt to turn it into a full on dictatorship, and the people are resisting. It's a long, intricate warfare and nobody knows what the end will be. Both sides are fighting for their lives, no need to explain why for the people, but those in power will be obliterated by the courts if their grip on power slips and democracy survives.

I believe that a China style technocratic totalitarian government is being pushed on for all countries by behind the scenes world elite. But even in China, their dictator is struggling to stay in power right now. Power is a trickster. It makes you drunk, makes you feel invincible. But nothing is coveted for ever, everything is temporary. No world elite can change this universal law.

Indeed, with the technological developments of the current world, humanity is at a crossroads. I prefer to remain optimistic and just do what I can for what I believe is right.

 

[blig-blug]

I wish I were that optimistic, @dithyramb , but I know of no side that has aspired to hold State power and hasn't ended up promoting increased mass surveillance and control in the long term. Yes, after a fight against an open dictatorship it may temporarily improve. When the screws are tightened again it will be done "democratically", not in a cynical way but because a State really requires it to function.

Dictatorships tend to be openly brutal, and that's both a sign and source of weakness and fragility. The ideal State makes crime impossible and it's enthusiastically supported by its population. If there are a few black sheep that threaten social harmony, it will detect them and help them through therapy, medication, and deradicalization programs. Torture chambers and gallows are highly suboptimal and tend to result in unrest over the long run. The same goes for censorship: ideally it won't be needed, if the population fully understands how their "wrong" opinions are harmful for the common interest.

 

[Jamie01]

I believe that a China style technocratic totalitarian government is being pushed on for all countries by behind the scenes world elite.

Pretty much.

 

[dithyramb]

The only source of my optimism is my belief in Truth, and in Spirit as an immutable force. We don't have to be fully aware of how we will overcome this threat. The power of the unconscious forces in humans and the non-human world is greater than any egoic/institutional power.

 

[blig-blug]

For context, many supporters of surveillance laws in Europe argue in favor of them precisely because they see a need to combat disinformation that helps those far right movements you're referring to (also to prevent child porn distribution). A good chunk of what they call disinformation is genuinely disinformation, and it does help those far right movements (not that those movements would be opposed to surveillance and censorship themselves). So it's not a case of "fascism vs democracy": there's agreement that surveillance and censorship is needed, the disagreement is in what should be censored and persecuted. I do agree that a State needs those tools. I don't support it, though.

 

[blig-blug]

The only source of my optimism is my belief in Truth, and in Spirit as an immutable force

I wish for this to be the case. I do think that if there's a way out of this, it has to come from some kind of spiritual transformation.

 

[TheGreenPhantom]

I think the ruling class is continually trying to find new ways to control people; and people continue to be... people. No one really wants to be told what to do.

 

[dithyramb]

For sure it's the complex conundrum of human civilization that we are facing right now. There is much more to it than just fascism vs the people.

A spiritual transformation is the remedy indeed, no matter how nonsensical or unimaginable it may be for most people.

Even Terence got it right on this. Nobody is in control. We don't know shit.

Just do what is right for your individual avatar, and don't worry about trying to redesign the world all by yourself.

 

[northape]

Thank you, everyone

I don't see politics as a solution to anything, because there is a whole structure behind it that needs to change first. Politics depends on culture, which depends on personal psychology, which depends on the subtle energies of the body, which depends on environment, food, position of heavenly bodies, etc.

So, hearing how each individual copes with this change is what's interesting to me. I find it difficult not to be angry and frustrated. Even if there is a good intention (which I doubt) behind all these developments, they are going to be misused. That's just our nature. I'd love to just go live by myself in some forest, but even this is close to impossible.

People who have a good position in society and a steady income don't want to hear about it, but it's going to find them someday, too.
From my social level, I see very clearly where it's going. How can I come to terms with it?
My view is similar to @blig-blug, and I try to cope like @dithyramb
However, I usually end up in a rut, just like @northape

 

[TheGreenPhantom]

Just do what is right for your individual avatar, and don't worry about trying to redesign the world all by yourself.

...and ignore those who do without proper guild certification...

 

[rkba]

I think...

that we pay attention to what we feel is real, and by doing so we create the reflection we observe.

If you want to change the reflection, you'll have to change what you feel is real and you will automatically switch your attention to your 'new' reality.

The 'trick' is to not pay any attention to the reflections of the 'old' reality or it will continue to be reflected back at you.

As always, this is easier said than done,

I think...

 

[ShadedSelf]

Yup, how can I grow given the perception of life Im having? What is life asking of me right now?

Maybe my concerns for these forms of control is a reflection of my own fear, my own need for control.

Then the anger and the fear is something you can actually process and cherish.

 

[fink]

It's pretty obvious that we now have the tech and the knowledge to feed, house and entertain all eight billion of us with almost no effort at all. If those in power wanted to do that it would have already happened.

We could end all war. Inequality too. We could take industry and farming to orbit. Insane to do heavy industry on the bio-rock sanctuary.

The problems of the world are not difficult to solve. They just don't want to do it. And we cannot argue because they have nukes.

 

[northape]

that we pay attention to what we feel is real, and by doing so we create the reflection we observe.
If you want to change the reflection, you'll have to change what you feel is real and you will automatically switch your attention to your 'new' reality.
The 'trick' is to not pay any attention to the reflections of the 'old' reality or it will continue to be reflected back at you.
As always, this is easier said than done,

Habits (karmas) push us toward something and steal our attention. I still struggle to direct my focus where I want it to be. Some triggers are so magnetic that I see no other option but to attend to them. My environment simply never gives me a chance for a new perspective. After years of working with medicine, I've come to understand that my environment is what limits me. Living in the same place with the same people just pushes you into your old rut. Realizing that I need to change my surroundings in order to truly change myself is very pressing, but I can't do anything about it right now.

Yup, how can I grow given the perception of life Im having? What is life asking of me right now?
Maybe my concerns for these forms of control is a reflection of my own fear, my own need for control.
Then the anger and the fear is something you can actually process and cherish.

You're right on point, but knowing what's going on is rarely a solution. It could be the first step, though.
I see that New Age feel-good thinking leads nowhere. It gives some room to breathe for a few weeks or months, but the situation remains and you need to deal with it.
Using anger and fear as a path and transforming them into something beautiful is a very high-level practice. Most of us need to work on something simple first, changing our lives with small steps, before even trying to face fear. Real, raw fear is no joke.

It's pretty obvious that we now have the tech and the knowledge to feed, house and entertain all eight billion of us with almost no effort at all.
If those in power wanted to do that it would have already happened.
We could end all war. Inequality too. We could take industry and farming to orbit. Insane to do heavy industry on the bio-rock sanctuary.
The problems of the world are not difficult to solve. They just don't want to do it. And we cannot argue because they have nukes.

I feel the same. It's not even the nukes, but people's conformism and lack of willpower. Someone with a good position in society rarely tries to change it or make it better. They might create stories about how they're working for the world, but they'll never part with their luxurious lifestyle, as if it's a well-deserved prize. No one person should have too much wealth or power. People like Musk and Gates talk about making the world a better place while making millions from slave labor and misery. Why not fix Africa, protect the Amazon, create welfare, and educate the world? They have the means to do it, but they'd rather buy one more house and play the savior.
I feel like our morals are at an all-time low. This kind of reasoning might even be banned in a decade. I hope I'll have made my exit before then.

 

[ShadedSelf]

You sound really pessimistic, and you seem to really like to focus on what you cant do anything about.
Cant change the law, cant direct my focus, cant change the environment, cant face the fear. Im limited, caged. Doomed.

Which is probably true, at least to some degree, not the doomed part anyways.

There is a whole lot you cant do, and I wont even tell you to focus on what you can do because its too New-Agey, too optimistic.

Does that sound about right?

 

[fink]

From my little view point, there some of us that cannot endure the bubble of happiness method. I know it makes sense to ignore what we cannot control. But it feels like part of my job in this life is to embrace and appreciate as much of the human experience as possible. That means looking in all the dark corners as well as enjoying the sunshine.

 

[doubledog]

My view here is that this is a logic and inevitable outcome of actual people's belief system. I have had countless discussions about this with lot of people and I also observe that there is almost no belief in personal freedoms amongst common people. A period of political liberalism is gone.
Absolute majority of people believe that everything must be regulated or controlled by state. This is even more pronounced between political intelectuals.

I grew up in a communist regime, so it's nothing new to me. Individual activity is suspicious!