Is Harmala addiction possible ?

[monomind]

Hello Nexians,

Hope some of you can chip-in on this somewhat theoretical subject:
I slowly fall in love with Harmalas. Vaping some FB rue extract turns out to have beneficial effects for me. It induces serenity and peace of mind that I believe can allow for spiritual work to take place ( I find similarities to some of the effects of MDMA ). Here is the issue though: Given that among other things ( like binding to GABA receptors ) Harmalas will make Serotonin stay longer in the synapses... wouldn't your brain eventually ( after continues usage) down-regulate Serotonin release, and then if you suddenly stop using harmalas withdrawal symptoms will take effect ?
I wonder if someone who used harmalas for long period of time and then stopped had any issues ?

Thanks and stay safe

 

[Sabnock1990]

I've worked with Rue/Harmalas extensively for long periods of time, taking daily/near daily for months at a time, took it near daily for 4 years along with DMT, took Rue extract daily for 8 months, and no, Harmalas are in no way, shape or form addictive at all, and there's been really no problem coming off them.

In fact i've been taking Rue again recently, started taking it daily almost 4 months ago, and every time i have to fill up my capsules i really have no desire to, but i do it anyways because it's medicine and i'm experimental and i do get benefit from it.

Harmalas are very anti-addictive, they've even made me quit Cannabis. There's also a patent on Harmalas for their anti-addictive properties, useful for breaking addictions to other substances.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Even when there's no purgative properties and the undesirable side-effects go away, like when you build up the reverse tolerance, there's still no addictive qualities. As for withdrawal symptoms, if there are any withdrawal symptoms they're relatively mild, as i've had my periods of regularly taking Harmalas and then stopping, and never noticed anything about it.

Only thing i've noticed is that sometimes i'm more prone to irritability because of my Aspergers, and so sometimes i've noticed when i start taking Harmalas, or when i'm coming off them, my irritability can flare up a bit, but other than that never noticed much in the way of actual side-effects or withdrawal effects, and i'm not even completely sure that the Harmalas have to do with the irritability flare up because even without Harmalas i'll have times where i'm fine and then i wake up one day in a bit of a mood and have an off day, i think that's relatively normal for a lot of people though, but yeah that's the only thing i've noticed.

Otherwise, Harmala consumption feels quite healthy, but in no way does it have any sort of addictive pull to consume it.

 

[Eaglepath]

I've worked with Rue/Harmalas extensively for long periods of time, taking daily/near daily for months at a time, took it near daily for 4 years along with DMT, took Rue extract daily for 8 months, and no, Harmalas are in no way, shape or form addictive at all, and there's been really no problem coming off them. In fact i've been taking Rue again recently, started taking it daily almost 4 months ago, and every time i have to fill up my capsules i really have no desire to, but i do it anyways because it's medicine and i'm experimental and i do get benefit from it. Harmalas are very anti-addictive, they've even made me quit Cannabis. There's also a patent on Harmalas for their anti-addictive properties, useful for breaking addictions to other substances.

Haha this is like saying: No sex it's not addictive.. I had it now every day for about a year.. and now I'm starting again haha..

I'm highly addicted to Ayahuasca.. can imagine a life without most of things.. But not her... Like being addicted to your mother.. Like a child...

Ok and some seriousness: No it's not addictive... It's highly effective against addictions in most cathegories.. both chemically and if you learn to listen to the spirits with higher dosages it's on another level.. and can be a true guide throughout your life.. I've seen many real 360 degrees life changes in many cermonies..

 

[Sabnock1990]

I get your sarcasm lol, but naw it ain't like that. Most of my regular experimentation took place from 2012 to 2015, and then i decided a break was in order, haven't really touched DMT since then, though i did take a low dose once in December of last year with some Moclobemide but still don't feel ready to take it again.

In 2017 iirc is when i took the Rue extract daily for 8 months straight, stopped no problemo. Didn't really take it again until 2019 with my gf, only took it a few times like here and there because i wanted to introduce her to the Rue, then in like January of this year started taking the Rue again, daily, primarily because i know it has anti-viral and anti-parasitic properties, and could maybe be useful against Corona, figured why the hell not take it? lol, so i've been taking that once a day, here lately moved up to twice a day because i'm experimenting around, started taking 2 grams back in January, upped it to 3 grams in like February, then a few weeks later upped it to approx 4.5 grams, been taking that dosage ever since.

It feels like i'm taking a medication really, but definitely nothing i would see as addictive or cause for concern, i practically have to force myself to take it lol.

 

[dreamer042]

First off, @ShamansStamen, paragraphs man! Those little text walls are difficult to read.

I've been taking harmalas more or less daily for many years now, never had any issues withdrawing them, even for reasonably prolonged periods (a few months without taking them to test exactly this hypothesis).

Regarding the GABA receptor binding, they are generally listed to be inverse agonists, though some research suggests they may have a mixed binding profile, or even be binding presynaptically. In any case, at the neural level, they appear to have the opposite effect of a benzo, inhibiting GABA transmission. This should make them anxiogenic and proconvulsant, however, as we who take them well know, they paradoxically present as a strong anxiolytic similar in effect to a benzo.

The mechanism behind this isn't well understood and is a whole other can o worms. To put it simply though, they are basically an anti-benzo and have some strong potential in treating alcoholism and benzo addiction in manner similar to how Suboxone is used in opiate addiction.

Regarding the Serotonin question. There is one old study that shows upregulation of platelet serotonin receptors with ayahuasca use. They did not elucidate in the study if this occurred with harmalas alone or with DMT alone and as far as I know there hasn't been any follow up to find out. It is intriguing research in any case, and yet another layer of the paradoxical effects of these strange and magnificent molecules.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Apologies, i know, i type weird lol. It's been corrected.

 

[Eaglepath]

Yeah I was only trying to be funny haha...

No I agree.. I havent tried it as extensively as you but I played around a while with around 150mg Haramalas every second day for sometime.. And same here it never feels difficult to just stop. And yes after a while you nearly need to force yourself to take it.. I remember I liked the peace and clarity in mind it brought.. But minus is tiredness and weird in the stomache.. And to always be alert about Tyramine food..

Interesting with the anti-viral and anti parasitic properties. didnt know that..

Ive also seen studies (several but old and new) about the Serotonin question and if I remember correctly the new ones at least was with Ayahuasca.. So both Harmalas and DMT.. But if I remember correctly they could point that this effect was due to specifically Harmine I think..


Some interesting videos..

 

[downwardsfromzero]

Yes, harmalas are clearly anti-addictive. Towards the end of the second week of my daily harmala tea practice - and in agreement with you guys - it was a case of me having to force myself to do it. Fortunately there was a numerical logic to the dosage pattern which allowed there to be a clear conclusion of the process. The harmalas also seem to handle behavioural 'addictions' as well. Addictions are, at root, behaviours after all.

Once my current rue extraction has been completed, it will be time to have another go.

For me the addiction is trying out ways of clearing the pectin haze from rue tea and seeing how many boils it takes before the seeds stop yielding alkaloids.

 

[Jees]

Have been dosing 1 to 2gr powdered seeds daily for months now and did not take it for like a week, I wanted to incorporate a stall. I hear it's good to cycle with plants so I did a mini cycle of sorts, just started to take them again since today. No signs whatsoever of addiction effects have set in. One could easily forget the habit of in taking with no signs of a build up dependency. Fwiw.

 

[Eaglepath]

How are your stomache Jees after this? Nausea?

 

[Jees]

How are your stomache Jees after this? Nausea?

So far no nausea, but I ate a lot today so it was diluted. Must wait for next days to have a clearer impression of the re engaging.

 

[Eaglepath]

No just meant in general during this time when you have used the raw seeds daily? Personally they are hard on my stomache.. also creates some nausea..

 

[Jagube]

I would also have to force myself to eat whole rue seeds regularly.
Extracted harmine taken sublingually, on the other hand, is rather benign in terms of physical effects, but still takes some forcing myself.

For me, the thing with ayahuasca (or any form of harmalas with DMT) is that once I take it and feel the effects (maybe not the peak, but post-peak, on the way back), I'm in the mood for more. However, before I take it, I'm usually not in the mood for it. It's much more tempting to have a nice meal and watch a movie than to go into myself.

So I can go for days without drinking, but when I do drink, it's often multiple servings and sometimes on consecutive days. And then once I stop, I again don't drink for a while. The switch from ordinary to altered states forms a natural barrier of sorts... like having to go over a shaky rope bridge to get from one side of the river to the other. Also the physical demands (fasting etc.) add to it.

Without DMT, the above still holds true to an extent, but much less, as harmalas alone make for a less intense experience.

For me the addiction is trying out ways of clearing the pectin haze from rue tea and seeing how many boils it takes before the seeds stop yielding alkaloids.

P. harmala successive boils experiment results

Outline ------- I boiled Rue seeds 5 times. After each boil, I did a simple base extraction of total alkaloids. I then washed, dried and weighed the impure freebases. Motivation ---------- To get an idea of how efficient the subsequent boils are and find a sensible trade-off between yield and...

forum.dmt-nexus.me

 

[Jees]

No just meant in general during this time when you have used the raw seeds daily? Personally they are hard on my stomache.. also creates some nausea..

Ah about that, with the 1 to 2 gr a day dosing I estimate roughly 1 month and all traces of nausea went away, also when doing a pharma session with extracts is much more pleasant then.
One exception, if I take 1 gr in combination with coffees, I get a bit of a harmala slam and is not so funny if you have responsibilities to deal with. If I know to eat fatty or drink coffee(s) then 1 capsule containing 600 mg powdered seed is enough.

I roasted the content of 3 caps for mini test but I'm afraid to let the temp too much up, the powder lost it's light tan completely to dark brown and some fumes came off, drank it nonetheless and is better for the internals but it lost potency for sure, felt like only 1 capsule. Did not make another roast test so far. I wonder if potency is also affected by less roasting. This is powder and might react different than whole seeds. I guess with the powder I have to roast more prudent.

I'm still puzzled how people can take +2 grams a day and have full responsibilities, with 3 grams I start to call it a session

 

[Eaglepath]

For me, the thing with ayahuasca (or any form of harmalas with DMT) is that once I take it and feel the effects (maybe not the peak, but post-peak, on the way back), I'm in the mood for more. However, before I take it, I'm usually not in the mood for it. It's much more tempting to have a nice meal and watch a movie than to go into myself.

So I can go for days without drinking, but when I do drink, it's often multiple servings and sometimes on consecutive days. And then once I stop, I again don't drink for a while. The switch from ordinary to altered states forms a natural barrier of sorts... like having to go over a shaky rope bridge to get from one side of the river to the other. Also the physical demands (fasting etc.) add to it.

Haha I second all of this.. Like words taken out of my own mouth haha

 

[Eaglepath]

And Jees, alright. So it took a whole month to get used to it.? wow.. FIghter!

I cant take it with Coffe.. I get totally fucked, fatigue on another level and confusion.. First time I thought I was gonna die..

I'm still puzzled how people can take +2 grams a day and have full responsibilities, with 3 grams I start to call it a session Big grin

Full responsibilities of laying on a blanket under a big tree and watchings the clouds so they dont fall down

 

[Jees]

And Jees, alright. So it took a whole month to get used to it.? wow.. FIghter!

With only 1 gr intake its not a real troublesome thing. With microdosing then a second gram same day is many hours in between. One gram works too I'm sure, I'm not convinced a second gram is necessary for microdosing purposes. What ShamansStamen took is not microdosing anymore in my little book, more like dosing without the micro

I cant take it with Coffe.. I get totally fucked, fatigue on another level and confusion.. First time I thought I was gonna die..

Yes that is it. I got it a few times now so I'm pretty sure that coffee is a harmala upset magnifier of astral proportions :twisted:
Nice that you confirm my own experiences.

 

[Sabnock1990]

I've been taking approx 4.5 grams of roasted Rue seed powder encapsulated daily for 6, almost 7 weeks now, but started out almost 12 weeks ago or so with 2 to 2.5 grams, then upped it to 3 grams about 10 weeks ago, until i upped it to the 4.5 grams almost 7 weeks ago.

Been taking it daily all this time, i'm perfectly functional, but i also take 10 drops of Limonene once a night before bed and i'm pretty sure that cleans it up a good bit. I also drink a cup of Coffee in the morning and haven't had any issue with it.

And, here in the last few days i've started taking my 4.5 gram Rue dose twice a day, roughly 10 to 12 to 14 hours or so apart. I'm actually quite surprised that i've had barely any side-effects or rough times, no nausea or vomiting at all even from the get go, felt drowsy a few times here and there but not anymore.

 

[Sabnock1990]

Also i should note, have not followed any diet or dietary restrictions, been absolutely fine, and have even eaten before, during/right after taking, and after, no problemo