I don't find your words offensive, but I do bristle slightly at your tone. You write as a gatekeeper, as though you have seen and thought of all the possibilities and THIS MUST BE IT. I do not believe you are trying to impose your values or beliefs on me, I merely wish to precede my reply with this so that you can think about it as you respond. Your post begins by saying I have failed to take in account 4 things. First I would point out that with a discussion on reality being a prison after death, you must be willing to expand your mind. First, all of your discussions present an anthropocentric view of everything. I feel fairly safe to say that when discussing reality, post death, anthropo-anything must be thrown out the window as we are no longer human, whatever we may be, energy, soul, creation, allness, or the bleak alternative, nothing, we have lost our human characteristics. I will now go through your very authoritatively worded reply and respond. If I am at all harsh in my replies, please don't take it personally, I'm just bucking against the limitations you seem so intent to place on me.
Also, while I did take the time to respond to these four, "well what ifs", I would like to say that I feel these are no different than the speculations on the implications of DMT which can be found through the homepage portal and feel that once again you are doing exactly what you are railing against and are ultimately limiting your understanding to your experiences (which is what we all do but no one has experienced even a fraction of a percent of everything)...Ok, sorry for that last ramble, couldnt really get the thoughts together, it's been a long day at work...now to address your post:
observationtype said:
(1) All of these experiences may show you deliberately false "wonderlands" for real, because the drug is deliberately designed that way.
No...just no...nothing you have said here can actually be applied or examined. who are you to describe what I have seen as deliberately false. Especially given the psilocybin done in the '50s where it was shown that psilocybin increases visual acuity. There is a very strong probability that these are NOT false in any sense of the word in either the essence of the drug or the experience/reality presented.
observationtype said:
(2) All of these experiences may show you alternate universes for real which are all part of a subordinate system but this subordinate system is only part of a larger system. The subordinate system is the prison and not the totality of existence. The totality of existence would be the system, not the subordinate system. Your exploration chamber and the prison are not the same thing - I do not believe that I misunderstood you.
But you
DID misunderstand me, and as in your earlier post, your misunderstanding is evidenced in your presentation of "the fact". It's only a prison when you decide it's a prison and you completely missed all of that. That was the point, remember how I talked about semantics? Yea, that's what I was referring to. If you were sent to real prison, yet were enlightened enough to project your consciousness/essence out of that prison the prison would ultimately be irrelevant.
Alternatively, if you were sent to prison for five years and chose yo spend the whole time in your cell or on work detail or in the showers with bubba, or scared for your life or whatever, then yea, it truly was prison. If however you take those five years and get yourself several degrees, create art, and live through existence, I would hesitate to call this prison. I'm not debating where you physically are (and yes, before you rebut, thanks to an illegal search of my car several years ago I spent some time in Jail down in South Carolina, prior to getting shit sorted out and getting off) but your attitude defines where you (in that expansive non-materialistic state) are. Emotional states are all self-created and self-sustained...attitude is more than you recognize it to be.
Systems exist, yes. Subordinate systems can exist within those systems as well, but no system is a prison until you and i and everyone else collectively agree that it is (Man, it's a shame that Burnt's not here to chomp my ass for that line
)
observationtype said:
(3) By ingesting drugs, you are able to leave the subordinate system and enter the system which supercedes it only temporarily. After you consume drugs, you always come back to the same reality. The drugs show you "more" but this "more" might not be what you are able to choose from after death.
ok, so what? So, let's say that that more is not a viable option, what about the infinite other mores that exist from other perspectives. What are the "mores" available to gamma rays? You can't answer because you don't know, and this is my point. This is how your authoritative authorship attempts to abstain from addressing alternative, yet no less real, points of view. What about the mores for the vibrational energy coming from the rings of saturn, what possibilities are open to them? The fact that drugs show that there are other possibilities is enough, or should be, because once you see the extent of different possibilities it becomes evident that the human experience is an infinitesimal sliver of the possibilities...the possibilities are endless.
observationtype said:
(4) The drug-induced experiences let you experience what you CAN BE but not what you ARE in the physical reality. Your first post sounded as if you have godpowers on earth and can manipulate reality just as you want to. Yet, you did not beam yourself into my room and I did not see any sign.
I understand what you are saying, but for the moment where I am what I CAN BE, that's what I am. I am really not I. I use I to refer to myself as the 12 year old who was staunchly anti-drug, but that is not who I AM. I creates a false sense of continuity. I creates an illusion of stasis when the reality is change. I have experienced long term changes as a result of my entheogenic experiences. After my first 1/8 of mushrooms I knew that my gf was cheating on me, I knew what she was lying about, I knew details she hadn't told anyone...I have experienced boundary dissolution and interpsychic phenomena while not on drugs. There are mystics, yogis and the like throughout the world who do the same thing. Have you seen the meditation aids used by the Ancient Indians? The Geometry is straight DMT fractals and the like. I AM everything I have ever been. I AM everything I will ever be.
It's all here, just like the thousands of botanical species in your front yard you will never see because their seeds (which are unquestionalby there) will never receive the exact combination of everything they need to sprout, watch, this allegory will be observable as climate change increases rain patterns and god knows what starts popping up. I will reiterate, the possibilities are endless, each moment is an eternity, just because
you can't access or see this all the time does not make it false any more than my saying it makes it true...
observationtype said:
I believe that entheogens change perceptions. However, I posted this before and these words are not from me. This excerpt is from a thread on abovetopsecret.com. I provided the link at the beginning of this thread.
2. Terence McKenna is a great man, wise, and have had many insights and I have high respect for him and his work.
However, you are assuming that consuming psychedelic substances for some reason will reveal "the Whole Truth" to you. That is a rather broad assumption to take. These substances can certainly give many insights, and open new perspectives of reality, and perhaps in some cases go very deep and beyond what people such as Terence McKenna ever got to experience before his unfortunately early death.
But, you also have to consider that the psychedelic substances themselves may perhaps be part of a different reality all together, one which may create certain amounts of experiences, thus making a person believing he "got it" and the "answer to everything". Perhaps by design - by whomever created these substances as a part of Earths biological system in the first place.
Nevertheless, I agree these substances gan give an insight into other realms and ones own personal being - but only to some degree. In the end, ultimately, everything is up to you yourself and not any outside external influence.
Right, so if everything is up to yourself, we are in agreement. This reality is not a prison, you have merely deemed it a prison and are acting as such. Perceived power creates real power, I think that's probably one of the main themes you're glossing over in this thread. Yea, T Mac was the shit and he himself said you should take everything he said with a grain of salt (or mebbe 5 dried grams of stropharia cubensis). I dunno I feel like I had other things to say, I', sure your response will spark them.
observationtype said:
Even if meeting on ayahuasca in a synchronized hyperspace event for real is possible it could be an illusion just as consensus reality. You seem so fascinated about entheogens and seem to belief that everything is limitless, that all options are available to you and that you are totally free. I believe this to be a fallacy. Such beliefs through entheogens are another indication to me, that there could be more truth to this prison theory. Entheogens seem to fuel the ego, to corrupt the ego with "everything-is-possible-and-I-am-limitless" beliefs and make you blind of another perspective. This last sentence sounds like an offence - I understand - but please do not see it as one because I just wanted to make my point of view clearer. Your post was interesting and contributed to this thread. I thank you for that!
haha, no. That's really all i have to say to this, but knowing that that will not be seen as acceptable here's why...At the point where the ego is long gone and my essence is still intact your whole claim falls apart. I am no more blind than you are. I accept that your own life experiences and whatnot gave you the perspective you have. It is not about being limitless, it is about being semi-permeably bounded, it's about the malleability of the definitions of life and death. It's about the fact that these terms dont mean anything, don't believe me? Look up life and death in the dictionary. We don't know what it means to be dead, we really don't know what it means to be alive other than our experiences either. Hell, just the fact that we call it living and not dying is evidence to how much all of this "reality" that you consider a prison is subject to our own perceptions. We are not bounded from existence, we interact with it, we shape it.
energy is not created, nor is it destroyed, nor is it permanently incarcerated...it just is...I guess we'll just have to wait and see what lies beyond.
).
