Making changa with shredded B. Caapi (not leaves)

[TheCrimsonElephant]

Hey DMTies,

I recently got interested in having longer trips to have the time to develop thorough thinking schemes while zooted.
In order to do that I'd like to try changa.
I have freebase DMT 86% purity (extracted but not purified), Banisteriopsis Caapi liana shredded (photo) and high purity alcohols.

I don't have much alternative herbs to use ; tobacco, psychotria viridis and salvia.

Can liana pieces of caapi be smoked safely ? Should I just pour wanted dose of DMT in ethanol and let it dry over a certain amount of shredded vine ?

Thanks in advance for your answers

 

[Panpsychic]

Hey DMTies,

I recently got interested in having longer trips to have the time to develop thorough thinking schemes while zooted.
In order to do that I'd like to try changa.
I have freebase DMT 86% purity (extracted but not purified), Banisteriopsis Caapi liana shredded (photo) and high purity alcohols.
View attachment 96636
I don't have much alternative herbs to use ; tobacco, psychotria viridis and salvia.

Can liana pieces of caapi be smoked safely ? Should I just pour wanted dose of DMT in ethanol and let it dry over a certain amount of shredded vine ?

Thanks in advance for your answers

I can't answer this question directly on the shredded caapi rather than leaves although smoking it would probably be difficult. However in general, Changa does not enhance trip duration all that match imo. There is debate on how much the harmalas are actually vaporized at these temperatures compared to the DMT. A buddy of mine feels that the benefit of changa is really just having it on a leaf for ease of smoking. I have some c
Changa (with caapi leaf) and some Enhanced Leaf (DMT without caapi, just on another combination of smokable leaves). I notice perhaps a very slight increase in duration and intensity with the Changa proper, but it's negligible.

By far the way to really increase the intensity and duration from 10-15 mins to a good 30-50 mins, is to consume the harmalas orally in a tea (mixed with maybe a juice or soft drink) about an hour before and then smoke. That's what I would recommend if you want to have more time to work with.

 

[TheCrimsonElephant]

I can't answer this question directly on the shredded caapi rather than leaves although smoking it would probably be difficult. However in general, Changa does not enhance trip duration all that match imo. There is debate on how much the harmalas are actually vaporized at these temperatures compared to the DMT. A buddy of mine feels that the benefit of changa is really just having it on a leaf for ease of smoking. I have some c
Changa (with caapi leaf) and some Enhanced Leaf (DMT without caapi, just on another combination of smokable leaves). I notice perhaps a very slight increase in duration and intensity with the Changa proper, but it's negligible.

Thanks for your reply

I didn't know that DMT+ caapi was not that efficient. Knowing that, I think I'll stick to my plan and keep it for a future ayahuasca.
Harmaline alkaloids freebase is not that hard to find so I'll wait to get some before trying IMAO + vaporized DMT.

By far the way to really increase the intensity and duration from 10-15 mins to a good 30-50 mins, is to consume the harmalas orally in a tea (mixed with maybe a juice or soft drink) about an hour before and then smoke. That's what I would recommend if you want to have more time to work with.

Do you have experience with continuously vaporizing DMT after a harmaline tea ?
According to this graph, there is still plenty of alkaloids in the blood after a few hours. I'm wondering how long it's is possible to go with one tea at T0 and multiple vaporization after that.

I don't know very well the tolerance mechanism of DMT.
I know it's possible to trip multiple times with barely no break between the come ups and come downs when DMT is vaporized alone. Probably because of it's endogenous nature and the speed at which it is eliminated in the blood.

But what would happen if an IMAO was used, provoking a longer half life of elimination and a longer activation of the 5-HT2A receptors ? Would it induce a tolerance ?

 

[Panpsychic]

Thanks for your reply

I didn't know that DMT+ caapi was not that efficient. Knowing that, I think I'll stick to my plan and keep it for a future ayahuasca.
Harmaline alkaloids freebase is not that hard to find so I'll wait to get some before trying IMAO + vaporized DMT.

Yes, just be careful. The MAOI when taken orally significantly boosts the potency as well as duration of the smoked DMT.
Its still not a bad idea to have the DMT infused on a leaf (can be any leaf like parsley or Mullein) so as to be able to more easily gradate your intake if combining it with an MAOI brew.

Do you have experience with continuously vaporizing DMT after a harmaline tea ?
According to this graph, there is still plenty of alkaloids in the blood after a few hours. I'm wondering how long it's is possible to go with one tea at T0 and multiple vaporization after that.

I don't know very well the tolerance mechanism of DMT.
I know it's possible to trip multiple times with barely no break between the come ups and come downs when DMT is vaporized alone. Probably because of it's endogenous nature and the speed at which it is eliminated in the blood.

But what would happen if an IMAO was used, provoking a longer half life of elimination and a longer activation of the 5-HT2A receptors ? Would it induce a tolerance ?

From what I have seen with making a Peganum Harmala tea (brewed and strained 3x then sediments removed, roughly 3g of seeds for one dose), it activates fully about an hour after ingestion and you can then have the MAOI effects for a good two hours or so after that, before a reduction.

I personally haven't tried with redosing more tea after this and smoking more, so can't say if there is tolerance. I am not sure it will be an issue though, the power of this Holy combination (recall that DMT is "The Light" and the Harmala is "The Force" in traditional terminology) is so great that often after even one good hit with the bong I go so far I feel that's enough for the session. It's not something that generally invites frequent or regular partaking in my experience.

 

[brokedownpalace10]

Yes, just be careful. The MAOI when taken orally significantly boosts the potency as well as duration of the smoked DMT.
Its still not a bad idea to have the DMT infused on a leaf (can be any leaf like parsley or Mullein) so as to be able to more easily gradate your intake if combining it with an MAOI brew.


From what I have seen with making a Peganum Harmala tea (brewed and strained 3x then sediments removed, roughly 3g of seeds for one dose), it activates fully about an hour after ingestion and you can then have the MAOI effects for a good two hours or so after that, before a reduction.

I personally haven't tried with redosing more tea after this and smoking more, so can't say if there is tolerance. I am not sure it will be an issue though, the power of this Holy combination (recall that DMT is "The Light" and the Harmala is "The Force" in traditional terminology) is so great that often after even one good hit with the bong I go so far I feel that's enough for the session. It's not something that generally invites frequent or regular partaking in my experience.

Interesting.
I have smoked both enhanced Rue and Caapi ahead of smoked DMT.
I smoke the Harmala and wait 5-10 minutes before the DMT and that seems to do more than smoking together.
It definitely increases the duration, but not to the extent you are describing. The biggest change is in the quality of the experience. "Strength" might even be reduced in a way.
I find it much more healing and personally useful.
Anyway, do you have any experience with sublingual? What if one were to chew on a hefty pinch of Rue and hold it in their mouth?

 

[Panpsychic]

Interesting.
I have smoked both enhanced Rue and Caapi ahead of smoked DMT.
I smoke the Harmala and wait 5-10 minutes before the DMT and that seems to do more than smoking together.
It definitely increases the duration, but not to the extent you are describing. The biggest change is in the quality of the experience. "Strength" might even be reduced in a way.
I find it much more healing and personally useful.
Anyway, do you have any experience with sublingual? What if one were to chew on a hefty pinch of Rue and hold it in their mouth?

Yes that makes sense if you were to smoke some Caapi before then wait a while before smoking the DMT its more effective than smoked together. It still won't be nearly as potent as if you drink some caapi or Rue brew beforehand though, and then smoke the DMT.
For me yes subjectively it's radically different than smoking pure DMT alone, I get shades of near death type feelings at times (no physiological problems at all, but psyche or egoic) and its worthy of its own name to distinguish it. 'Smoked Ayahuasca' is close which is what they sometimes call Changa although obviously you are drinking the Harmala not smoking it so it's a hybrid drinking and smoking roa. Maybe there can become a consensus name for partaking of it like this? Probably that's why it's not so common is, there is no recognized name for drinking harmalas and smoking the DMT.

I haven't tried sublingual with the Rue seeds but I am sure there will be some effects, there was a thread someone made about chewing and holding just 8 rue seeds sublingually for 5 minutes then spitting when they wake in the early morning and then going back to sleep (the Wake Back To Bed method) and having significantly increased lucid dreaming so its clearly psychoactive like this, its just a question how much. It may be comparable doing this method to the smoked Changa however which I find maybe adds only a couple minutes duration at best and slight intensity.
If you want to trip properly with the harmalas though just brew up the tea, Rue is cheap and widely available and can be brewed in bulk then distilled down so you can have a ready 20 doses kept in the fridge.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Just some notes from my scan on this thread.

The amount to which changa lasts longer than DMT alone seems predicated on how much harmalas were used to make the blend. The more harmalas, the longer the journey and sometimes the more intense. For me, the extension of time is not negligible. I have been up for over 30 minutes from one toke of changa, with a very long comedown after the 30 minutes. We should also consider relative sensitivity amongst people.

The vine will be likely harsh to smoke and also won't hold the DMT that well as the vine is not very absorbent.

I would like to second the idea however, that ingesting harmalas will be more intense than smoalking them and then adding DMT. However, the nature of the experience is different too because of the ROA of the harmalas.

One love

 

[Panpsychic]

Just some notes from my scan on this thread.

The amount to which changa lasts longer than DMT alone seems predicated on how much harmalas were used to make the blend. The more harmalas, the longer the journey and sometimes the more intense. For me, the extension of time is not negligible. I have been up for over 30 minutes from one toke of changa, with a very long comedown after the 30 minutes. We should also consider relative sensitivity amongst people.

The vine will be likely harsh to smoke and also won't hold the DMT that well as the vine is not very absorbent.

I would like to second the idea however, that ingesting harmalas will be more intense than smoalking them and then adding DMT. However, the nature of the experience is different too because of the ROA of the harmalas.

One love

OK that's good to hear. I think it can be more hit and miss as to the MOAI effects with smoking, which may be due partly to individual sensitivity as well as variation in how much is vaporized. I have had Changa blends at about 20% caapi harmalas but noticed only a few minutes extension of the experience compared to smoking straight DMT Enhanced Leaf with no harmalas.

I also think it's important to recognize that the ROA makes a big difference as you mention, because oral Harmalas first followed by smoking the DMT I have found is a super deep and intense experience pretty much guaranteed.

From what I can see Julian Palmer has broadly stated the same thing in his descriptions of smoking Changa, you can sometimes get these longer experiences with smoking the harmala blends but for reliable extension drink the harmalas first.

"You can still get 30-40 minute experiences sometimes even if you just add caapi at a ration of 30% of your overall blend....

Taking Syrian Rue tea orally before smoking Changa (or any form of DMT) appears to be the most effective way to extend duration and depth, with the duration easily extended to 30-40 minutes. I have been in contact with people who prefer this technique to any other combination of medicines, including ayahuasca."

7 Things Many People Don’t Know About Changa

7 Things Many People Don’t Know About Changa

julianpalmerism.com

 

[Voidmatrix]

My blends always have 300mg of harmalas (typically from rue) pet 1,000mg of DMT. Whenever I use less, I get the vibe from the harmalas, but not as much potention.

To get real wild, drink some rue (for me between 3-5g roasted and acid brewed) then smaolk harmalas, then DMT, or just changa after the rue.

One love

Ps. I have also been exploring high dose harmalas and low dose DMT, which is a whole other world.

One love

 

[Panpsychic]

My blends always have 300mg of harmalas (typically from rue) pet 1,000mg of DMT. Whenever I use less, I get the vibe from the harmalas, but not as much potention.

To get real wild, drink some rue (for me between 3-5g roasted and acid brewed) then smaolk harmalas, then DMT, or just changa after the rue.

One love

Ps. I have also been exploring high dose harmalas and low dose DMT, which is a whole other world.

One love

300mg harmala per 1g Changa, with a 500mg DMT blend sounds about ideal.

Actually some people find rue hard to smoke if they use as the harmala in changa, but that is if you try to ground up the seeds.
Actually you can make the rue tea and then set some aside and if you keep boiling it down it turns into a kind of 'rue hash' paste which can be added to your blends also. You could also make a 'rue hash' joint with tobacco and smoke that, then smoke the DMT.

I need to explore high dose Harmala and low dose DMT though, I hear some traditional ayahuasca brews are mainly caapi without much DMT but still very active. I suppose its whether you want more balance of the power or the light.

 

[Voidmatrix]

300mg harmala per 1g Changa, with a 500mg DMT blend sounds about ideal.

Actually some people find rue hard to smoke if they use as the harmala in changa, but that is if you try to ground up the seeds.
Actually you can make the rue tea and then set some aside and if you keep boiling it down it turns into a kind of 'rue hash' paste which can be added to your blends also. You could also make a 'rue hash' joint with tobacco and smoke that, then smoke the DMT.

I need to explore high dose Harmala and low dose DMT though, I hear some traditional ayahuasca brews are mainly caapi without much DMT but still very active. I suppose its whether you want more balance of the power or the light.

My blends tend to be 1,000mg DMT, 1,000mg herbs, 300mg harmalas. And I''m actually using harmala extract from rue. However, I have (accidentally) done what you've have described in perpetuating reduction until it becomes a paste. You can also do a crude alcohol extraction @starway7 and I did that a couple of years ago. We just soaked the seeds in alcohol, separated the seeds and then allowed all of the alcohol to evaporate. You can smoke it or eat it.

I think I may add some of either of these ideas to the joints I smoalk from changa bowl remnants.

I tried it out after hearing that many ayahuasceros consider caapi to be the real medicine in aya brews. And I understand why. I've worked to build a relationship with harmalas as deep as the one I have with DMT.

All this being said, I was going to have a little K journey later, but may opt for cannabis and harmalas after this conversation.

One love

 

[brokedownpalace10]

Ps. I have also been exploring high dose harmalas and low dose DMT, which is a whole other world.

One love

Yes! Well, similar. I've found smoking Harmalas (a lot) and then smoking low dose DMT can be quite useful. Again, going by the fact that many Ayahuasca brews are mostly Caapi. More for medicine, meditation, and healing. Caapi for healing and Rue for introspection, to simplify grossly.

 

[Panpsychic]

My blends tend to be 1,000mg DMT, 1,000mg herbs, 300mg harmalas. And I''m actually using harmala extract from rue. However, I have (accidentally) done what you've have described in perpetuating reduction until it becomes a paste. You can also do a crude alcohol extraction @starway7 and I did that a couple of years ago. We just soaked the seeds in alcohol, separated the seeds and then allowed all of the alcohol to evaporate. You can smoke it or eat it.

I think I may add some of either of these ideas to the joints I smoalk from changa bowl remnants.

I tried it out after hearing that many ayahuasceros consider caapi to be the real medicine in aya brews. And I understand why. I've worked to build a relationship with harmalas as deep as the one I have with DMT.

All this being said, I was going to have a little K journey later, but may opt for cannabis and harmalas after this conversation.

One love

Yeah, I think that 'Rue hash' has a lot of potential. It smokes very pleasantly with tobacco and is a nice and easy ROA for the Harmala and works nicely in a Changa blend. Maybe even 'Rue Hash cookies' with infused DMT for oral consumption? Got to try that out some time.

I too have come to appreciate with reverence the Harmalas more over time, especially their symbiotic relationship to other entheogens and Psilohuasca, LSDhuasca which I have still to try. We are truly blessed to have access to these sacred drugs and know how to work with them.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Yes! Well, similar. I've found smoking Harmalas (a lot) and then smoking low dose DMT can be quite useful. Again, going by the fact that many Ayahuasca brews are mostly Caapi. More for medicine, meditation, and healing. Caapi for healing and Rue for introspection, to simplify grossly.

I think it's said well, simply. Those are my experiences as well.

Yeah, I think that 'Rue hash' has a lot of potential. It smokes very pleasantly with tobacco and is a nice and easy ROA for the Harmala and works nicely in a Changa blend. Maybe even 'Rue Hash cookies' with infused DMT for oral consumption? Got to try that out some time.

I too have come to appreciate with reverence the Harmalas more over time, especially their symbiotic relationship to other entheogens and Psilohuasca, LSDhuasca which I have still to try. We are truly blessed to have access to these sacred drugs and know how to work with them.

Please let me know how those cookies go! Haha, that's a great idea.

I have so much extract that I've just been sticking with that lately, but I have plenty of seeds, so can easily make one of the two kinds of paste.

We are of some of the most fortunate. Let's not squander it.

One love

 

[Animistic]

I'm personally also on the train of ingesting the harmalas and then smoking spice. It's a bit more work with caapi but saves one a lot of harsh smoke and gives qualitatively a more rich experience (ime at least).

 

[Voidmatrix]

I'm personally also on the train of ingesting the harmalas and then smoking spice. It's a bit more work with caapi but saves one a lot of harsh smoke and gives qualitatively a more rich experience (ime at least).

Rue extracted harmalas aren't harsh at all ime, granted it's always with cannabis and in a bong

One love

 

[Animistic]

Rue extracted harmalas aren't harsh at all ime, granted it's always with cannabis and in a bong

One love

I'm less talking of extracted harmalas and more about using shredded caapi directly as changa material. I haven't actually smoked extracted harmalas yet...*urge rises*

 

[Voidmatrix]

I'm less talking of extracted harmalas and more about using shredded caapi directly as changa material. I haven't actually smoked extracted harmalas yet...*urge rises*

I highly recommend them. So much so that I actually have changa blends that contain harmalas and caapi leaves. I'd personally rather save the vine I have for Aya (really waiting to have this experience).

There's also a blend with chaliponga, and another that's just chaliponga and caapi leaves in my changa box.

One love

 

[Voidmatrix]

Just thought to share this. I love rue so much that I made a rue rattle for ceremony and my meditation, especially harmala meditations.

One love

 

[Animistic]

I highly recommend them. So much so that I actually have changa blends that contain harmalas and caapi leaves. I'd personally rather save the vine I have for Aya (really waiting to have this experience).

There's also a blend with chaliponga, and another that's just chaliponga and caapi leaves in my changa box.

One love

What solvent do you use to dissolve the harmalas? Acetone? I have a bunch of freshly harvested caapi leaf I could infuse some extracted rue onto.

I also really love rue. It has a wonderous meditative spirit.