Pharmahuasca

[Apoc]

Can anybody help me understand the difference between harmine and harmaline? I realize they are both alkaloids of the caapi plant, but the website I am looking at offers both in freebase form, and I am wondering which works better for pharmahuasca so i know what to buy. They also have a product that is just labeled Banisteriopsis Caapi pure alkaloids. what would you guys recommend? thanks!

Most people seem to lean towards harmine. They say harmine has an energizing effect, while harmaline has a more sedative effect. I think harmine may also result in some brighter colored visions, and faster paced visions. Maybe. Also, harmaline is said to be a stronger maoi, requiring about half the dose of harmine to get the same inhibitory effect on mao. But, is there any reason why you can't just buy both and try them?

The caapi product probably contains mostly harmine, some tetrahydroharmine, and some harmaline, as well as possibly trace amounts of other alkaloids and/or b-carbolines.

 

[z0mbie]

Thanks for clearing that up for me Apoc

 

[d-T-r]

My friend plans to try some tea (50g white )for the first time this weekend. He plans to try it again soon after with some chacruna but for this first time, he figures he will see how his body gets on with the caapi.

However, he also has a small amount of nice white spice extracted from some mimosa left over. maybe 20 - 40 mg's worth.

He's wondering if it would be worth drinking it in orange juice, with the hope there would be enough to feel it's effect, or if that would be a 'gamble' after reading about some people not noticing any effects from less than 100mg.

He's only being cautious because he doesn't have much spice left but would like to experience it side by side with the caapi.

from any of your experiences, would vaping it once feeling the effects of the tea be more advised than taking it orally for such a small amount?

 

[jamie]

Can anybody help me understand the difference between harmine and harmaline? I realize they are both alkaloids of the caapi plant, but the website I am looking at offers both in freebase form, and I am wondering which works better for pharmahuasca so i know what to buy. They also have a product that is just labeled Banisteriopsis Caapi pure alkaloids. what would you guys recommend? thanks!

I would recommend you get some harmala seeds and extract harmine/harmaline yourself..save some money and it is fun..you will get way more for your money this way and learn something in the process.

 

[tele]

Can anybody help me understand the difference between harmine and harmaline? I realize they are both alkaloids of the caapi plant, but the website I am looking at offers both in freebase form, and I am wondering which works better for pharmahuasca so i know what to buy. They also have a product that is just labeled Banisteriopsis Caapi pure alkaloids. what would you guys recommend? thanks!

I would recommend you get some harmala seeds and extract harmine/harmaline yourself..save some money and it is fun..you will get way more for your money this way and learn something in the process.

Has anyone compared harmala seeds(syrian rue) extract vs caapi extract and is there any noticeable difference?

 

[damon]

The only way to know the differences is to try them yourself. There isn't a major difference between them, other than potency. Harmaline by weight is known to be twice as strong as Harmine, so you can't depend too much on reports of people having "better" effects with harmaline, be it stronger visuals, colors, or whatever, in my opinion. There is no doubt that harmaline is sedating, not like make you go to sleep, but groggy like you need some sleep. And I don't find harmine stimulating, just lacking sedation. With unseparated rue or mixtures, harmaline seems to overpower the harmine and you basically get sedating effects. I also attribute the variation in reports of effects to the variation of extract potency.

I like them all. I use harmala, harmaline, and unseparated rue extract, all freebase. They all do what they are supposed to do. I use them for smoking sprinkled on herbs, and in capsules for pharma. I don't have much experience with caapi itself, I'm not much of a tea drinker, but the extracts I have made were pretty much like pure harmine extracts.

Keeping on topic...
300 lb male

300 mg Harmaline or 200/200 mg Harmaline/Harmine
50 mg spice freebase (60 fumarate) taken immediately for a threshold dose, short duration
50 mg spice additional taken 15 minutes later for a light dose

Double spice quantities for a moderate dose, with maybe some more harmalas with the second dose. Take second dose at 30/60 minutes for a longer milder session.

I haven't had any desire to take more than that.

 

[McCoyBoy]

Never done parhma before, just made some black caapi extract. I weigh 150 lbs and was thinking of doing 200mg caapi alks and 50-60 mg dmt freebase.
is this a wise starting point? I know this is a common questions but i am nervous since it's my first time. thanks

 

[rawmo]

Never done parhma before, just made some black caapi extract. I weigh 150 lbs and was thinking of doing 200mg caapi alks and 50-60 mg dmt freebase.
Is this a wise starting point? I know this is a common questions but i am nervous since it's my first time. thanks

Standard dosing equation we use is 1mg per lb of body weight for a good, but not too over the top experience. Note - Pharma seems from our experience to be sllightly different from aya (i.e. you may need more than straight aya on what the DMT per lb would be for the same effect)
Dosing as follows
t=0 MAOI's [Caapi, Rue etc] standardise 200mg for 170lb person (and ratio out for diff weights)
t=20 50% of Freebase dissolved in juice (sometimes add a little phosphoric acid)
t=25 remaining 50% of Freebase (sometimes add a little phosphoric acid)

We've found that Freebase dosing tends to come on fastest/most consistently when taken at t=20.

Note also that everyone has a different time response of onset.
i.e. for one person it may be t=50, and for others taking at same time, same ratio it may be t=120
It's all down to your individual biochemistry and receptor affinities

Best of luck, it's a beautiful journey.

 

[motiv311]

How bout Deprenyl * Selegiline ..... just got my script of it. Would that do the trick?

 

[rawmo]

How bout Deprenyl * Selegiline ..... just got my script of it. Would that do the trick?

I'd be extremely cautious about using an irreversible MOAI [due to long term effects re diet if you forget].

It'd have a qualitativly different experience to e.g. Harmine, THH etc, but that may not be a bad thing.
But if you are going to consider it you'd be best to start low and work up dose/response wise.

Perhaps consider Moclobemide,, I know this works (slightly diff effects to other MOAI's).
But equally the real vine extract works best IMO

Patience is a virtue, caution is also a virtue

 

[3rdI]

This evening i will be taking my 2nd Pharmahuasca journey, the first fell short.

On my first attempt i took 4g of rue and 35mg of Jimjam and this experience didnt really come to fruition, however i may have left it a little to long between eating the rue and the Jimjam, about 45mins-1hr.

This time i plan on taking 70mg of jimjam 30 mins after the Rue and i also have some infused herb and changa to vape if im not quite where i want to be.

I am wondering if there is anyone who has any experience with Jimjam doseage in a pharmahuasca, there is only a single experience i can find with Jimjam and that was a couple of years ago.

Anyone got any up dated info?

Cheers

 

[endlessness]

3rdI, personally I found it to be more or less the same dosage.. I need a lot of it, 70mg wouldnt cut it for me, but you should try for yourself, hopefully you need less than me

Also one thing you could do is, say, take 3g rue first, and 30-40mins later take 1g rue plus the dmt.. By the way are you making tea from the rue or ?

 

[3rdI]

Hello endlessness,

Im about to have 5 days off work so i will be climbing boulders in the day time and climbing dimensions in the evening, this has no relevance i just love being off work:d

I think i will start tonight with 4g of Rue and 70mg of Jimjam and then top up with some changa if needed. If this doesnt do the trick then i will move onto 100mg tmoz and then maybe 150mg on saturday if im feeling upto it:shock:

I wont be making tea as i dont get any nausia at all from eating ground seeds so im more than happy to take this ROA.

What happens to be your sweet spot with Jimjamhuasca (there are far to many 'huasca's:wink

I have a caapi hamala extraction on the go at the minute, its about half way through so i should be able to use some hamalas at the weekend instead of the rue which i am very much looking forward to.

 

[endlessness]

I hope you have a wonderful experience

Unfortunately im one of the unlucky ones that need a huge dosage like 200mg+ of dmt/jimjam for pharma to work.. Its been a while since I took ayahuasca (though thats about to change soon), but when taking it in normal ayahuasca, I dont recall needing such a high dosage compared to others, I think there's something about the ingestion of pure alkaloids and absorption/bioavailabilty that we are still not aware of, that makes pharmahuasca more prone to misfires and the dosage changing so much from person to person...

 

[3rdI]

cheers, i will report back with my findings

EDIT-
Well, I had my first successful pharma experience, and it was lovely.

4g of rue with 75mg of jimjam.

If I had to compare it to an LSD experience I would say it was a solid medium experience with quite strong visual distorsion but a strange muted CEV and no mindf*ck that Lucy normally brings when she comes knocking.

Clearly the effects are different for everyone but this was what I would call a lovely introductory level experience

Time to double the dose:shock:

 

[chocobeastie]

>Unfortunately im one of the unlucky ones that need a huge dosage like 200mg

no, this is actually normal, believe it or not.

Sure, start small and go from there, but realise *most* will not get anything much from 30mg, 50mg and the effects for most only start around 70-80mg. and yeah, that is mildly psychedelic, not visionary. you want visionary, start at least 100mg, more like 150mg and go from there.

 

[jamie]

^sounds like people that go low on the harmalas to be honest. I have encountered people who I cant get far out there with the tea reguardless of how much admix until they have like 5g of rue. Once you get to the point where the harmalas are psychedelic or visionary by themselves, I am willing to bet 50mg would be easily enough DMT for those people who claim to need alot more.

 

[jamie]

I hope you have a wonderful experience

Unfortunately im one of the unlucky ones that need a huge dosage like 200mg+ of dmt/jimjam for pharma to work.. Its been a while since I took ayahuasca (though thats about to change soon), but when taking it in normal ayahuasca, I dont recall needing such a high dosage compared to others, I think there's something about the ingestion of pure alkaloids and absorption/bioavailabilty that we are still not aware of, that makes pharmahuasca more prone to misfires and the dosage changing so much from person to person...

I have noticed this as well and I dont really use pharma becasue I always got much more consistant effects with brews, reguardless of what I used. Either rue or caapi with mimosa or chaliponga tea for me has been more consistant and effective than pharma has been.

 

[AluminumFoilRobots]

I have been working with semipharmahuasca (freebase Spice dissolved in vinegar-water + ~3g harmel) exclusively for the past three months, other than a single harmel + low-dose vaporized DMT experiment. I find it to be much more consistent for me than ayahuasca has been - I have had trouble establishing a relationship with aya, but work extensively with harmel. Some people say that harmel is harsher than aya, with less nature-oriented themes and heavier body-load; perhaps this is true, but I find him to be just as wise, if of a different spirit than aya.

I have found that my sweet spot with pharma is .7 mg/lb (I weigh around 140, so 98 milligrams). More than this and I get very strong and insistent open and closed eye visuals and intense thought looping or even "shattering", in which linear thought is totally broken down and there are just lots of repetitive thoughts. However, I will be working my way up slowly to 1 mg/lb. I think it was just so sudden and powerful that it threw me off before. I also want to try vaporizing small amounts during my pharma trips to get multiple peaks, so to speak, and to even further increase the amount of time for the lessons.

I find pharma to be exquisite and much more than just "eye-candy", for me it is HIGHLY visionary with complex scenes unfolding in my minds eye. It is however less organic and perhaps less of a single, definable "spirit" like ayahuasca. I have yet to encounter machine-elves with pharma.

I have dosed with harmel as low as 2.8 grams and had it work just fine. I find it to be much more easy to duplicate responses to the medicine with pharma, as I've had perhaps 1/3 of my aya/anahuasca experiences be "muted" or altogether misfires - to date my only muted pharma experience was when working with 125 mg of caapi alkaloid with a small amount of harmine hcl. I guess I required more b-carbolines than that.

My last pharma experience had a long period of me contemplating Allah and the Ahl al-bayt (the Prophet Muhammad and his family) which was then burst in upon by a mesoamerican Quetzalcoatl-esque being. DMT has been more and more reviving my love of Islam and seeming very "Islamic" in a strange Universalist way...


/rant

 

[jamie]

^ I would not really call that "pharma" though..in the amazon "huasca" is caapi..and you are using rue unextracted(or tea) right? In that sense you are more modeling traditional ayahuasca than pharma I would say..but these are just relative terms anyway so it does not matter. I just personally always think of pharmahuasca as consisting of extracted harmalas.

For me if I use manske rue alkaloids for pharma that is what really makes it different from a brew with the rue. Something is just missing when I extract the rue..other harmalas I guess. The tea has something that the extract lacks.

I cant say to what degree using extracted spice from mimosa differs from the tea..I have used DMT fumerate a few times and I dont like it becasue for some reason the fumerates make me sick..and not just harmala sick it is something specific to the fumaric acid..I tried freebase oral once but I dont really have alot to say about that.

I love rue and dont find it any less organic or anything than caapi..I love both and I love to brew them together also.