Question about chocolate with pharmahuasca.

[SomewhatLost]

Hi all,

I've been frequenting this forum for a while and just created an account. You guys provide an incredibly valuable service and I wanted to thank you all for the information you've already provided. However, I have a question I was hoping you could assist with. First I'd like to provide a bit of background. SWIM intends to do Pharmahuasca this weekend. He's extracted approximately 100mgs of spice from some MHRB and it looks to be of somewhat questionable quality. It's a yellowish color and waxy rather than crystalline. However, he does know it's active as he's smoked a very tiny bit of it. He wasn't able to break through (it was a single hit and not terribly large), but he did get definite noticeable effects (the room changed colors, he got a pretty intense body high and everything had a somewhat mystical quality to it). So while it's not a terribly pure product, he's quite sure that it's active and at least fairly potent.

SWIM considers himself a bit of a hard head and is a rather large guy (around 300lbs), so in spite of having experimented with psychedelics for almost 15 years now (mostly with LSD and shrooms, probably around 40 trips), he's only really experienced visuals twice (or 2.5 times if you count the very brief and mild spice trip I referred to earlier). The two times SWIM experienced visuals were incredibly significant to him. One time was with a rather large (8 grams dried) dose of fairly potent cubensis. SWIM experienced this trip outdoors on a nature trail and he had never felt so connected with nature. SWIM experienced trees breathing, a sense of benevolence from all the creatures around him and it was an altogether amazing time. The second time SWIM experienced visuals was rather recently when he first experienced an ayahuasca analog. This experience was very mild, but the little taste that it provided made SWIM extremely determined to repeat the experience with more potent results. For this experience, SWIM ingested 200mgs of caapi alkaloids and followed it an hour later with the condensed and somewhat dried sludge he got from a brew of around 15grams of MHRB (SWIM couldn't stand the taste of the brew, couldn't get down so much as an ounce of it, but he has a very strong stomach, so he had no problem keeping down the sludge once it was to a consistency so that he could swallow it without really tasting it much, tannins and all). About an hour and a half after getting down the sludge, SWIM started hearing the carrier wave, it was fairly gentle, not overwhelming like I've heard many people refer to it as. And as SWIM was hearing this sound, he started to feel really nice. Just going outside for a smoke was a fantastic experience, at this point in the trip the visuals hadn't really begun, but everything just seemed to have a different look to it. Just looking at the trees and the nature around him, SWIM felt that he truly belonged in the world and once again felt extremely connected to nature (even though SWIM is a bit of a home body). After spending a bit of time outdoors, SWIM returned home to lay down and, for about 5 minutes, SWIM began to experience very mild but extremely cool visuals. Staring at the wall, SWIM began to see what seemed to be an invisible chisel carving very cool and intricate designs into the wall. SWIM sat back in awe during this very brief, but powerful experience. When it finished, SWIM was extremely sad it was over and wanted to try it again but with longer and more substantial effects.

So now SWIM is hoping to give this another try this weekend. This time he's decided to use straight up harmaline (200mgs to make sure that MAO is fully inhibited) and rather than ingest the sludge, he's extracted the DMT this time around. SWIM is concerned that due to his size and his apparently high tolerance to psychedelics that the 100mgs of waxy spice that he's extracted will not be sufficient to provide the kind of experience he's hoping to achieve. That is until he read some posts here about how theobromine can perhaps severely potentiate oral DMT. It sounds fantastic to him, an extremely abundant and cheap addition which could make a more powerful experience with less spice. SWIM doesn't have straight theobromine, but he does have cocoa powder in his pantry which is supposed to contain about 2% theobromine by weight. I've heard a few experiences where cocoa powder was used to potentiate oral DMT apparently to great success. My question, however, is this. Is it really safe to combine chocolate or cocoa powder with MAOIs, even reversible ones like harmaline? When reading over dietary restrictions, I always see chocolate as one of the things to avoid on an MAOI diet and I wouldn't want SWIM to harm himself during his next trip. Apparently cocoa is high in tyramines. This is odd because I've also heard that chocolate can act as an MAOI to an extent, which makes me wonder why people don't get violently ill when eating large amounts of chocolate if it ostensibly has two or more chemicals in it which should react very badly with each other in our bodies. So anyway, do you think this is a safe combo? If so, how much would you recommend that SWIM take to fully potentiate the oral DMT? SWIM is far more concerned about not going far enough in this current experience rather than going too far. In spite of many experiences with psychedelics, he's never really had what he'd consider a bad trip. He's had difficulties at times, but he's always taken those difficulties as learning experiences and considers himself definitely better off because of them. So SWIM isn't concerned about the intensity of the trip, he'd much rather it be too strong than not strong enough. However, he's certainly concerned about his physical health and the last thing he wants is a hypertensive crisis.

So, does anyone have any suggestions? Any advice would be greatly appreciated. Sorry for the length of this post, I just wanted to provide a bit of background before asking my question. Thanks again to all members of this forum for the information you've provided!

 

[Global]

So now SWIM is hoping to give this another try this weekend. This time he's decided to use straight up harmaline (200mgs to make sure that MAO is fully inhibited) and rather than ingest the sludge, he's extracted the DMT this time around. SWIM is concerned that due to his size and his apparently high tolerance to psychedelics that the 100mgs of waxy spice that he's extracted will not be sufficient to provide the kind of experience he's hoping to achieve. That is until he read some posts here about how theobromine can perhaps severely potentiate oral DMT. It sounds fantastic to him, an extremely abundant and cheap addition which could make a more powerful experience with less spice. SWIM doesn't have straight theobromine, but he does have cocoa powder in his pantry which is supposed to contain about 2% theobromine by weight. I've heard a few experiences where cocoa powder was used to potentiate oral DMT apparently to great success. My question, however, is this. Is it really safe to combine chocolate or cocoa powder with MAOIs, even reversible ones like harmaline? When reading over dietary restrictions, I always see chocolate as one of the things to avoid on an MAOI diet and I wouldn't want SWIM to harm himself during his next trip. Apparently cocoa is high in tyramines. This is odd because I've also heard that chocolate can act as an MAOI to an extent, which makes me wonder why people don't get violently ill when eating large amounts of chocolate if it ostensibly has two or more chemicals in it which should react very badly with each other in our bodies. So anyway, do you think this is a safe combo? If so, how much would you recommend that SWIM take to fully potentiate the oral DMT? SWIM is far more concerned about not going far enough in this current experience rather than going too far. In spite of many experiences with psychedelics, he's never really had what he'd consider a bad trip. He's had difficulties at times, but he's always taken those difficulties as learning experiences and considers himself definitely better off because of them. So SWIM isn't concerned about the intensity of the trip, he'd much rather it be too strong than not strong enough. However, he's certainly concerned about his physical health and the last thing he wants is a hypertensive crisis.

Ok, so there's several things that need to be addressed here. First of all, 250mg is the standard for MAO inhibition, but 200mg will work for some. Secondly although people have varying sensitivities to oral spice, it should seem that weight is not one of the major contributing factors in this. There's really no way to tell how sensitive you are until you take it for yourself, so 100mg may not be enough or it could be insanely overwhelming. For that reason, I would start at 50mg and if you're not happy with it where you're at an hour after ingestion, there's two routes you can take from there to try and remedy the situation. Firstly you can either simply ingest the rest and see what happens, or you can load up a small amount to smoke. I'll usually underdose so I can then control how far I go with smoking, but be forewarned this can be quite intense. If you take 50mgs and smoke 15-20mg more, I can't imagine you not getting incredibly prominent visuals. As for the whole cocoa issue, the dietary restrictions aren't really a concern with reversible MAOIs (though you should still avoid the drugs on the list). Would it harm you? Doubtful. Do you really need it? I'd say not really. So long as you've managed to achieve MAO inhibition, smoking DMT afterwards is the golden road to visuals so complex that most people who do get visuals often including the bizarre ones of DMT by itself are left in awe.

 

[SomewhatLost]

Thanks so much for your reply, Global. With regard to MAO inhibition, I was under the impression that 200mg was a fairly high dose for Harmaline, being approximately twice as strong as Harmine. SWIM has 600mgs Harmaline in his possession, so he could certainly take more if necessary, but was under the impression that 200mgs would be more than sufficient. If that's not the case, SWIM wouldn't have any problems taking up to the full 600mgs that he has if he thought it would help with the experience. If you or anyone else has had experiences with high amounts of Harmaline in pharmahuasca, I'd very much be interested if you think going with more harmaline would be a good way to go.

SWIM has also considered breaking up the dose into a large oral dose and then a much smaller dose to be smoked at the peak, but was concerned that the 100mgs he's extracted will already be too small an amount to start with for oral ingestion. In his previous experience with orally active DMT, SWIM ingested the sludge from a brew made from around 15 grams of MHRB, so he assumes that he received around 150mgs of DMT that method if one assumes a 1% yield. That was a very mild trip for SWIM, so he's afraid that a mere 100mgs this time around will be even milder. Do you believe that the 200mgs of caapi alkaloids he used previously was not enough for full MAO inhibition? Is there a possibility that ingesting all the other vegetative matter from the sludge greatly slowed the absorption of DMT and that's why his previous trip was so mild? Also, it's good to know that cocoa appears to be safe, but I'm curious as to why you don't seem to recommend it much. Do you believe it has a potentiating effect on oral DMT? If so, wouldn't it make good sense to use it? I'm thinking that SWIM is going to follow your advice to an extent and save at least a small amount to smoke at the height of the trip, but he'd definitely like to get the most bang for the spice as it were. I've heard reports that the theobromine can increase the effects anywhere from 1.5 to 6x. If that's the case, he doesn't understand why anyone wouldn't use it with ayahuasca or any of its analogs. Even if it meant using substantially less spice.

Anyway, thanks again for your reply. I expect it will be of great assistance. Sorry for all the additional questions, and thanks in advance if you take the time to reply again.

 

[dreamer042]

Okay,

On dosage: This is what I would do, I would go for 150mg of harmaline off the bat and wait 20 minutes or so till you are feeling the effects (heavy, stoned, dreamy, etc....) Then take 50mg of spice with another 25-50mg of harmaline to help it down. This should hit within 45 minutes, if for some reason it does not, then try eating a bite of food (bread or fruit or some such) to make sure it's not just a digestion thing. (At this point if it still hasn't hit another 25mg of harmaline and 25 mg of spice top up should do the trick). whether you end up needing the top up or not when it does hit you or if after all that it still doesn't to really blow your world apart smoalk the other 25-50mg of spice.

On chocolate: some people report eating chocolate with harmalas and having no noticeable effects at all, some people say it makes the experience moar "speedy", some people report potentation, and some people report negative side effects such as headaches or feeling like they are going to die. So it's really all over the map on how the two interact with one another, if you choose to combine them you do so at your own risk and could possibly end up spending the whole experience in great suffering thus I think it would rather unwise to risk attempting to use cocoa to try and potentate an experience that can often already be overwhelmingly powerful for many people especially if you combine it with smoalking as mentioned above.

On the previous dose: I would guess that you were not fully inhibited because 15 grams of mimosa is far too much for pretty much everyone regardless of weight and metabolism. The idea is to go heavy on the harmalas to make sure you get fully inhibited then just a small amount of spice will rock your sox.

Welcome to the nexus, I'm looking forward to hearing all about your wonderful journeys into the magical and mystical realms of the bizarre beyond belief.

-Namaste

 

[SomewhatLost]

Thanks Dreamer,

SWIM thinks he'll give your suggestion a try or something very close to it. I'll mention that during SWIM's previous orally active DMT experience, he experienced very, very mild effects up to an hour and a half or two hours after downing the foul sludge. He was beginning to think he'd experience nothing at all in terms of visuals. That was when SWIM's girlfriend (who was also doing orally active DMT for the first time) came up to him and offered him some chips. SWIM didn't want any chips because his stomach felt fine and had fasted for almost a day prior and didn't want to perhaps water-down the already light experience he was having. SWIM's girlfriend insisted as she found the sensation of eating the chips to be quite pleasurable. SWIM succumbed to his girlfriend's request and found just eating the chips to be an amazing experience. Even more impressive, mere SECONDS after eating that small amount of chips, SWIM began to experience visuals. SWIM would later learn that this is to be expected as the DMT is stored (in the liver, he believes) until the stomach has some food to digest (or absorb). SWIM still intends to fast for a while prior to his experience, but I think he'll have a bit to eat maybe a half hour after taking the spice.

From what you've written, it sounds like SWIY has never tried the chocolate/oral DMT combination. If he has, do you know what his experience was like? I'm wondering if there's perhaps a threshold dose of theobromine that could be taken that would potentiate the oral DMT without having many negative side effects. SWIM would like to once again mention that he seems to have a very high tolerance for psychedelics. He understands that DMT is not much like other psychedelics at all, but his previous experience with it tells him that he most likely has a somewhat strong tolerance for the stuff.

Regarding SWIM's previous dose, you mention that MAO might not have been fully inhibited. Do you think that's likely with 200mgs of caapi alkaloids? Do you think he'll have better luck using 200mgs of straight up Harmaline rather than a mixture of harmaline, harmine and THH? Would you suggest that he takes more harmaline to ensure full inhibition? He has 600mgs of the stuff, so he can take up to that amount if he thought it would add a positive aspect to the experience. He's taken 300+mgs of the stuff before and it doesn't cause him any nausea.

Anyway, thanks for the advice. I definitely intend to write up a trip report for SWIM sometime during this three day weekend. SWIM is hoping that it will be the experience that he's been seeking for many years.

 

[dreamer042]

I have not tried the chocolate myself do to the potential side effects, reports are all over the map, if you do decide to try it start with a small amount, maybe a spoonful or two (perhaps toward the latter part of the experience, just in case it turns out to not treat you so well?).

Pure harmaline is quite a bit stronger than the mixed caapi alkaloids which usually is mostly harmine. You mentioned you are a larger fellow and have a rather hard head for these things but I want to suggest that it's likely the harmala end of things where you need to top up the dosage to make sure you are fully inhibited, once you are fully inhibited the any tolerance you may have to the spice is pretty much out the window. You may even want to go larger numbers with the harmaline than I listed. I see you have taken 300 mg of it before, if you are feeling the effects fully at that dose you may want to shoot for that, if not you may even want to go higher, of course its always best to start lower and just top up the dose till you find your sweet spot. Anyway, once inhibited 50 mg of dmt should be plenty moar than enough to the job and if not you can always top that up as well till you do find what works.

To sum it up, it's likely not the dmt that you are tolerant too, it's probably moar likely the harmala dosage that needs to be raised to fully inhibit the mao in the gut and let the spice make its way to the bloodstream and the brain.

 

[SomewhatLost]

Thanks again, Dreamer.

I have a feeling you're right. To fully ensure that lack of MAO inhibition isn't an issue, SWIM will take 200mgs to start, then follow with another 100mgs taken with the spice maybe 45 minutes or so later. I'm guessing that's more than he needs for full MAO inhibition, but he wants to make sure it's not a factor. He'll then experiment later to find out what his sweet spot is. For this weekend, he'd just like to make sure that he gets the full effect of the DMT. SWIM is still on the fence regarding the cocoa. He's thinking that if he's still experiencing minimal effects say 40 minutes after taking the spice and having a small bite to eat, he'll then take a teaspoon or two of cocoa to see if it helps kick in anything.

Both you and Global have mentioned that weight should not be a significant factor in tolerance for DMT. However, I've been reading Dr. Rick Strassman's "DMT: The Spirit Molecule" (which, by the way, is INSANELY interesting and well written and also available in PDF format on this site), in it, Dr. Strassman administers the doses to his subjects in terms of a certain percentage of a milligram per kilogram of body weight. In these tests, the DMT was administered intravenously, he went so high as .6mgs/kg, but eventually settled on .4mgs/kg as the high dose. I assume he does this because of the IV nature of the administration, but wouldn't overall blood volume be a factor in terms of how intensely the DMT hits when ingested orally as well? SWIM would very much like this to not be the case as he's really hoping to break through this time around. What you say certainly makes sense and seems to jibe with the many, many trip reports I've read which seem to be remarkably consistent in their dosages, regardless of body weight. I'm just wondering why blood volume doesn't seem to be a significant factor in terms of DMT's effects.

Anyway, you've both been extremely helpful. SWIM will take a good amount of harmaline prior to the experience and maybe 2/3rds of his spice. If this combination proves to be underwhelming, he'll take some cocoa to see if that helps. If that too proves to be underwhelming, he'll smoke some of the remaining spice. SWIM is very happy and optimistic. He thinks this will be the trip he's been waiting for.

 

[dreamer042]

Blood volume could definitely be a factor, and he did administer doses based on body weight. I honestly am not scientifically minded enough to know how much a factor that really is via oral dosing and subjective experience, however it certainly could come into play. The bottom line is experiment experiment experiment, remember you can always top up your dose with a little moar till you find yourself where you want to be.

I wish you many haapi journeys ahead

 

[SomewhatLost]

SWIM definitely plans on doing much experimenting. So far he's only gotten a small taste of what this entheogen has to offer, but to say that he's incredibly intrigued would be an understatement to say the least. In spite of only receiving relatively mild effects from it so far, it's quite unlike anything he's ever experienced. He very much looks forward to writing up a report. It should be up here by Monday. Thanks again for your guidance.

 

[Global]

So you know for the future, in my experience ingesting 50mg(oral) + 50mg(oral) or 100mg(oral) comes no where close to the intensity of 50mg(oral) + 25mg (vaped) and then you still have the other 25mg to vape later.