russian olive status ?

[jmaxton]

...purple indicates noxious (but this is more a political, rather than scientific distinction)

Actually, I live in the purple zone and this tree is considered noxious because it chokes out native species and dramatically decreases bird populations in riparian areas. I'd hesitate to describe that as political. The problem is so serious that it's been made illegal to sell Russian Olives here. Birds eat their fruit, spreading their seeds about. Since they grow just about anywhere and quickly take over they rapidly kill off our fragile ecosystems. Please think twice about intentionally planting these trees if you live in the Mountain West or the High Plains. It's easy enough to find them in the wild.

-JM

 

[SnozzleBerry]

I gotcha.

A large number of plants have been designated noxious as a result of humans eating them for psychoactive effects and state legislatures trying to regulate/control that consumption. I was unaware of the birds issue, thanks for the information. :d

 

[Dorge]

Damn psychoactive plants always comin into our towns, takin our jobs and ruining bird habitat! They need to go back to mother Russia! And they need to learn the language if their gonna be citizens... Damn invasives...
Lmao!

The invasive species "theory" always reminds me of red necks talking about mexicans, and pre world war two germans talking about Poland...
Protect your boarders purple states from the ravenous Russian olive hordes!!!
To me this is a very political point of view...

Can we keep the subject of Russian olive focused on it's bioassays and pharmacology and further testing for this post at least? We have a lot to learn about this plant.

 

[jmaxton]

Hey Dorge,

I'm trying my best to take the high road here, but I feel the need to point out that my post was completely on-topic and relevant to the discussion of Russian Olive status. If you don't care about the stability of our environment, that's fine with me, but I find your not-so-subtle attempt to belittle my values both childish and offensive. Nazi/redneck analogies? Those are both excellent ways to frame an intelligent debate... :roll:

And they need to learn the language if their gonna be citizens... Damn invasives...
Lmao!

Grow up, kid.

-JM

 

[SnozzleBerry]

Alright, let's keep this on topic guys. JM, I totally got where you were coming from and really did appreciate your post...as I said, I had only seen it applied in a political context in the case of psychoactive plants (although I have seen similar things to what you say to be the case for plenty of non-psychoactive ones)...you learn something new everyday

I see where you're coming from and also understand the point Dorge is making, albeit not so subtly...some people don't believe the concept of invasive should exist as plants do move by various means and so what if one species wins out. This is something that gets brought up from time to time where I work and I think both sides make interesting points in the debate, especially when you consider what each side views to be "natural".

Dorge, you made your feelings known on jmaxton's post and jmaxton replied. I think we can agree that one round is enough and that engaging in this further would most likely derail the thread...so back to the matter at hand?

EDIT: Today at the office I was informed that there is an article in Nature titled "Don't judge species on their origin" that has a number of botanists quite upset and annoyed and deals precisely with this issue. If you guys are interested, you should check it out. I believe there will be a response from my boss and several other noteworthy botanists in the not-too-distant future.

 

[gazal]

I think humankind has always modified the natural environment around her settlements, and that's fine.
The problem of modern exploitation of land with scientific paradigms brings the perverse concept of enemy and friendly plants; this almost totally based of values of monetary profit. That's nasty and merciless.
This unfortunately influences large territories.
The fear of wildlife uncontrolled autonomy justify our aggression and destruction without respect.

When the plant is little it's easy to uproot her and keep one's yard clean: where is the problem ?
The problem exists much more for the monoculture farming industry's 'fields of death', ton's of GMO crops aimed to produce toxic meat from tortured animals by tortured workers; who will spent their salary to buy this ill food and Big Pharma's drugs.

I prefer to believe Russian Olive is an useful and powerful plant, who recover the soil not only of her own advantage,
but helping other plants - and then insects and animals - to colonize lost niches, reducing the artificial lack of diversity among living species.
Russian Olive could be a way the intelligence of Earth uses to contrast the human unblanced interferences into ecosystems and our un-ethical conducts.

I'm happy birds love it too, and i guess they also need some support after the hard times they had recently:
good to know that for them still exists some not polluted food to rely on.

But to going back to the core topic, I repropose my questions pending :
- The bark was fresh or dried ?
- Bark from what part of the plant: trunk ( high or low ?), branches ( small or big? )
- How many doses per raw weight of plant material you could estimate ?

and another one:
- the plant you harvested had flowers, or fruits ( green or the mature red?), or was it before the flowering ?

 

[Dorge]

Invasive xenophobia aside.... Just pointing out the absurdity, no offense meant, I practice permaculture too, and really lean away from the myth of invasive species. It's a touchy subject for some people. Let's refocus...

let's get back to the extraction, and psychopharmacology. The main actives in Russian olive is not harmine and harmaline... It's other harmols so does any one have any info on these harmols ever being tested?

 

[Felnik]

I really think this tree is here to stay at this point
The amount of seeds a single tree puts out is phenomenal .
Choking out natives species is a bad thing . So spreading the seeds around
Indiscriminately is obviously not good . There are plenty around already
To use for research purposes .
There is definite activity in the bark and the leaves .
Further research by more people is necissary .

 

[SnozzleBerry]

let's get back to the extraction, and psychopharmacology. The main actives in Russian olive is not harmine and harmaline... It's other harmols so does any one have any info on these harmols ever being tested?

There's a SpringerLink article here: http://www.springerlink.com/content/rlx8uk00005831g1/
that gets into some of that...My account only works when I'm on campus as I'm no longer a student, but I do library research on Fridays and can grab it then if no one gets their hands on it before then.

 

[gazal]

<< The isolation of harman and tetrahydroharman from Elaeagnus angustifolia L. has been reported previously.
By chromatography on alumina we have obtained another two alkaloyds consisting of indole derivatives.

Alkaloid III: C12H12N2, the base gives a picrate with mp 234°C. Dihydroharman.

Alkaloid IV: C12H14N2, picrate mp 196°C, hydrochloride mp 246° C. 2-methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-beta-carboline. >>

... a very distinct personality.:d

 

[Dorge]

I agree that there is little need to grow them when they can be traded or gathered from areas where they are prolific.

<< The isolation of harman and tetrahydroharman from Elaeagnus angustifolia L. has been reported previously.
By chromatography on alumina we have obtained another two alkaloyds consisting of indole derivatives.

Alkaloid III: C12H12N2, the base gives a picrate with mp 234°C. Dihydroharman.

Alkaloid IV: C12H14N2, picrate mp 196°C, hydrochloride mp 246° C. 2-methyl-1,2,3,4-tetrahydro-beta-carboline. >>

... a very distinct personality.:d

Now this is just interesting....
These four substances could have a very unique synergy together... Much like harmine, harmaline and thh does in caapi.

 

[gazal]

I'm also curious of the oral route, and then with plant admisture of lights.

 

[Dorge]

Me too... It sounds like it needs very little for the smoked route... We are going to have to explore a whole new plant and alkaloid dose range. Play with caution! But this is very exciting. I am thinking tea of bark and leaves and then see how t goes...

 

[MelCat]

I agree that there is little need to grow them when they can be traded or gathered from areas where they are prolific.

I wonder how long till some vendors start offering it. I'm very interested in working with this plant as well.

 

[Dorge]

From what felniks told me the stuff sounds like it's active all by itself. Which reminds me of claudio narajos work with harmalas back in the day. Once some more people have bioassayed it and can confirm it's effectiveness I believe it will be just a short time before we see it on the market. A good way to control it's prolific growth is by haresting it appropriately. In Hawaii caapi vines are taking down trees and they have to harvest it quite a bit to keep it under control, which is a good thing!
Really looking forward to getting some!

 

[prottel]

I hope we can get some hard data on this and that some day soon someone could start selling it. I'd love to try out some new harmalas.

 

[jmaxton]

OK, I realize that I kind of derailed this discussion, although it was honestly inadvertent. To redeem myself I plan to run some tests on local Russian Olives in my area. I have access to several trees and I'm planning an extraction, a la gibran2. Anyone have any advice or cautions? I'll grab some leaves and bark today and hopefully start the boils ASAP. Here are the questions I'd like to answer:

1) Which parts of the tree have the most goodies? trunk bark, stem bark or leaves? Root bark will have to wait until I can get out there with a pickaxe without raising too much suspicion...
2) Are there worthwhile concentrations of alkaloids in the fruit? That'll have to wait until fall since they're just flowering now.
3) Do alkaloid concentrations/ratios fluctuate with the seasons?
3) Is a Manske necessary? Are there harmful/unpleasant alkaloids in there? (Would Manske even work for isolating Harman/T.H.Harman? Any chemists out there who can speculate?)
4) How much of the alkaloid extract is necessary (vaporized) to potentiate spice?

Any other questions I can try to answer? Like i said, I plan to harvest some specimens today and start the boils. Hopefully the whole extraction won't take more than a week or so but life's pretty hectic right now. I'll move as quickly as possible.

-JM

 

[Felnik]

Here's what i can add so far.

I tried an A/B on bark with lye and nothing precipitated out. I considered it a failure.

The manske salt extraction worked, it yielded a crude brownish powder that has definite activity.
In fact the word activity doesn't even come close to describing this.

The bark was collected from fallen limbs surrounding an old growth russian olive tree.
dead and mostly dry bark from all kinds of limbs.
a big pot boiled with vinegar for few hours, filtered , reduced. basic ayahuasca prep. then the salt extraction.

leaf extraction :
I put live leaves fresh off the tree in a blender with 80 proof vodka and blended it until it was a fine green pulp.

soaked it for 3 weeks in mason jar . filtered through numerous coffee filters, let it sit in fridge until everything settled and was left with a
cloudy liquid.
This was evaporated in a dish with mullein for a few days.
final drying stage in oven set to 200 degrees until it turning crispy dry . like candy.

this stuff is powerful , so far my experience has been that only a small amount of spice is necissary to kick this into full gear quickly.
I have to confess the high is incredible. no nausea at all.
the visuals are outstanding. bright crisp clear, no anxiety at all .

I can't tell whats better the bark or the leaves. at the moment they are both good, the leaves seem stronger at the moment but don't quote me on that .
this has to be experienced to believe,
there is said it.

this is big

 

[jmaxton]

I tried an A/B on bark with lye and nothing precipitated out. I considered it a failure.

The manske salt extraction worked...

Thanks Felnik. That's good info. I'll give gibran2's method (as referenced above) a try on some vinegar solution tea to see what happens. I assume it'll also be a failure, but who knows? I'll then run a Manske on some of the tea to see if I can reproduce your results.

I'm currently boiling the bark so I'll report back with any developments.

-JM

 

[Dorge]

Seems like leaf material is very easy to extract w/ethanol, and if it's just as effective in results could be a very simple method all around. Winter harvesting could be focused on bark.