boylobster
Rising Star
No wisdom for SWIM? Hm. Don't be shy, folks.
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Tetrahydroharmine (THH) sublingually
- Thread starter 69ron
- Start date
make sure you take the stuff on a completely empty stomach..and it helps SWIM to eat something light after taking the dmt..some bread, cereal, crackers, even a beer will work..this will help your stomach digest faster and may also reduce any nausea you may feel from the alkies..
also its good to test out how much it takes to effect your own body..because everyone is different and some people only need small amounts while others need more..also it seems to help to take a mix of THH + harmine or harmaline
SWIM likes to take 100mg THH with 40mg or so of harmaline...the harmaline helps with some of the energy that they THH gives you..and also really helps the MAOI action..its possible that the THH just doesnt cut it for you completely...and instead of using lots of THH..you can use a combination and use a lot less of both..
also its good to test out how much it takes to effect your own body..because everyone is different and some people only need small amounts while others need more..also it seems to help to take a mix of THH + harmine or harmaline
SWIM likes to take 100mg THH with 40mg or so of harmaline...the harmaline helps with some of the energy that they THH gives you..and also really helps the MAOI action..its possible that the THH just doesnt cut it for you completely...and instead of using lots of THH..you can use a combination and use a lot less of both..
boylobster
Rising Star
Sorry for the delay in my reply; I was away for the weekend. Thanks for responding!
SWIM does not seem to be affected very strongly by THH alone, so any recommendations in this regard would be most appreciated, i.e. preferred combinations, dosages, etc. Thanks again, guys; be well.
I've read that harmaline can have a somewhat stupifying or disorienting effect - would you say that's true, Jorkest, and would you recommend harmine + THH as a better combination? If so, how much harmine is considered a reasonable dose (orally) when combined with THH? And yeah, SWIM tried ingesting on an empty stomach, and chased the solutions with a small volume of tasty drink.Jorkest said:
SWIM doesn't atually know. SWIM has never tried pure harmaline or harmine... you might recall my post a while back about SWIM's misadventures with a weak rue tea; since then, SWIM has wanted to proceed cautiously when playing with MAOIs. SWIM is very interested in dosing DMT orally, and is very willing to try a combination of THH + harmine/harmaline, or even all three.69ron said:
SWIM does not seem to be affected very strongly by THH alone, so any recommendations in this regard would be most appreciated, i.e. preferred combinations, dosages, etc. Thanks again, guys; be well.
memo
Rising Star
SWIM recently tried 50mg Harmine hcl and 50 mg THH sublingually dissolved in lemon juice and water. About 40 min later he took 20mg Chali jungle spice (STB/FASA) in a similar fashion. About 1 hour after taking the spice he was definately above baseline with a lot of colors but not quite strong enough. He then smoked 20mg MHRB jungle spice (STB) which put him into the sweet spot for about 15 - 20 minutes afterwhich he was back to just above baseline and fairly quickly faded back to baseline. He definitely feels the Harmine much more than THH and it is a pleasant feeling. No nausea has been encountered with either thh or Harmine. He next plans on doing 120mg Harmine hcl + 80mg THH + 40mg spice in a similar fashion. Elsewhere on this board he read that this dose is close to the content in a true Ayah brew but it will have to wait a week. He tried 100mg THH alone and also 100mg Harmine alone to see how they effected him. The Harmine was definately more intoxicating in a pleasant way so this is what he believes people are talking about wiht the stupifying effect.
boylobster
Rising Star
Hm. My thread subscription must not be working properly... so don't think I'm just being inattentive, memo! Thanks very much for sharing; that should give SWIM a good base from which to begin playing with harmine/THH combinations. Now SWIM just has to wait for his harmine to arrive...
I know this line of inquiry is leading further and further away from the original thread topic, which was focused specifically on THH alone. Is there a more appropriate thread for me to be posting the questions of SWIM and the results from his further adventures?
I know this line of inquiry is leading further and further away from the original thread topic, which was focused specifically on THH alone. Is there a more appropriate thread for me to be posting the questions of SWIM and the results from his further adventures?
Actually it's the MAO-B specific ones that aren't dangerous re. 'the cheese effect.' MAO-A is what's in the stomach and liver. l-deprenyl, for example, is fairly specific for MAO-B, and doesn't require any special diet.
The fact they are reversible just means the risk is short-lived. And remember, it's "risk" not "certainty" we are talking about. Most likely you could eat some aged cheese in the middle of an aya journey and be fine. But if you do you are playing russian roulette. Even with the old irreversible MAOI's it's not like people were getting a hypertensive crisis every time they had a cheeseburger. They were prescribing those things for years with relatively few incidents before they figured out what was going on and instituted the dietary restrictions.
But please don't be the first person to kill yourself on aya. BAAAADDDD press! Not to mention the rest of us would miss out on your wonderfully informative posts.
69ron
Rising Star
No.
Xlplytsym, you are spreading misinformation because even those RIMAs effect MAO-A and tyramine is attacked by MAO-A, tyramine displaces RIMAs allowing MAO-A to attack the tyramine! Therefore RIMAs do not affect tyramine metabolism!
So, like I said, no diet is needed and they are VERY SAFE when used in the proper doses. And YES you can eat aged cheese and all that stuff when taking RIMAs. RIMAs do not block MAO-A metabolism of tyramine even though they are MAO-A inhibitors. When tyramine is ingested, it removes the RIMA from the MAO-A enzymes and attaches to it, thereby releasing the RIMA. This is a scientific fact. If they blocked tyramine metabolism, they would be normal MAO-A inhibitors and would not be classified as RIMAs.
Please look up what a RIMA is before spreading misinformation like that.
Xlplytsym, you are spreading misinformation because even those RIMAs effect MAO-A and tyramine is attacked by MAO-A, tyramine displaces RIMAs allowing MAO-A to attack the tyramine! Therefore RIMAs do not affect tyramine metabolism!
So, like I said, no diet is needed and they are VERY SAFE when used in the proper doses. And YES you can eat aged cheese and all that stuff when taking RIMAs. RIMAs do not block MAO-A metabolism of tyramine even though they are MAO-A inhibitors. When tyramine is ingested, it removes the RIMA from the MAO-A enzymes and attaches to it, thereby releasing the RIMA. This is a scientific fact. If they blocked tyramine metabolism, they would be normal MAO-A inhibitors and would not be classified as RIMAs.
Please look up what a RIMA is before spreading misinformation like that.
I know what a RIMA is. I also know it is MAO-A inhibitors that are responsible for the "cheese effect." Moclobemide has been studied in this regard and appears to be safe, but as far as I know harmala alks have not been so tested. Do you know of any such tests?
Plus it's a case of risk/reward. The likelihood may be small, but the potential harm is NOT. And for what? Is it that important to eat aged cheese in the midst of an aya journey?
69ron
Rising Star
Why do people post this old inaccurate information over and over and over? WHY?
It's a fact and I'm not about to search for the reports yet again. I've had to correct people posting that kind of misinformation like 100 times already! Will it ever end! I'm so tired of it. Do the research yourself.
Harmala alkaloids are RIMAs and they do not interfere with tyramine metabolism.
It's a fact and I'm not about to search for the reports yet again. I've had to correct people posting that kind of misinformation like 100 times already! Will it ever end! I'm so tired of it. Do the research yourself.
Harmala alkaloids are RIMAs and they do not interfere with tyramine metabolism.
I'm sorry, but you are extrapolating wildly based on solid evidence moclobemide is safe. Tranylcypromine is also a RIMA and DOES cause the cheese effect. There is _some_ evidence that Brofaromine may be _safer_. It's reasonable to speculate that harmala alks may be _safer_.
Moclobemide, tranylcypromine, toloxatone and brofaromine are ALL RIMA's. You are assuming all RIMA's are the same. They aren't.
Moclobemide, tranylcypromine, toloxatone and brofaromine are ALL RIMA's. You are assuming all RIMA's are the same. They aren't.
why are you talking about moclobemide? and tranylcypromine? the major RIMA's in caapi and rue(which is what most people use to make dmt orally active) are harmalas...and they are safe to use...and of course not all RIMA's are the same...if they were all the same...they wouldnt be different...you dont need to tell us this..
harmaline is more powerful than harmine and THH...but its more sedating and the visual effects from it are much different as well...
THH is just about as powerful as harmine..but its also a mild SSRI...and has some lovely energy behind it
harmine is energetic and easy
we understand that not all drugs are the same..but why are you talking about RIMA's that nobody is using for orally active DMT?
harmaline is more powerful than harmine and THH...but its more sedating and the visual effects from it are much different as well...
THH is just about as powerful as harmine..but its also a mild SSRI...and has some lovely energy behind it
harmine is energetic and easy
we understand that not all drugs are the same..but why are you talking about RIMA's that nobody is using for orally active DMT?
Because there's no evidence that harmala alks are safe. The argument that 69ron was making is they are safe because they are RIMA's. I'm pointing out there is really only one RIMA that has been shown to be safe--moclobemide. There's some evidence that some others are safer, but not completely safe.
I'm by no shape or form trying to put down harmala alks--I think they are wonderful. I'm just saying it's not a good idea to eat tyramine rich foods during the peak MAOI effects of an oral dose. We're only talking 6 hours here at the most. And we're only talking about oral doses sufficient to significantly inhibit MAO. It's irresponsible to tell people that it's safe to eat aged cheese during an aya journey, and just because it's been done sometimes with no hypertensive crisis doesn't mean it's not dangerous. Like I said above--we're talking "risk" not "certainty."
It's also possible that they are safe--we just don't know, and why take chances? If you must have some wine in the midst of an aya (or pharmahuasca) journey then make it white rather than red. How easy is that? I just don't want to see anyone die simply because others who don't know what they are talking about have assured them it's perfectly safe to eat anything during the peak MAOI effects.
I'm by no shape or form trying to put down harmala alks--I think they are wonderful. I'm just saying it's not a good idea to eat tyramine rich foods during the peak MAOI effects of an oral dose. We're only talking 6 hours here at the most. And we're only talking about oral doses sufficient to significantly inhibit MAO. It's irresponsible to tell people that it's safe to eat aged cheese during an aya journey, and just because it's been done sometimes with no hypertensive crisis doesn't mean it's not dangerous. Like I said above--we're talking "risk" not "certainty."
It's also possible that they are safe--we just don't know, and why take chances? If you must have some wine in the midst of an aya (or pharmahuasca) journey then make it white rather than red. How easy is that? I just don't want to see anyone die simply because others who don't know what they are talking about have assured them it's perfectly safe to eat anything during the peak MAOI effects.
From wikipedia: Monoamine oxidase inhibitor - Wikipedia
The only food that one should avoid is probably grapefruit. From wikipedia: Grapefruit - Wikipedia
Also, the MAOI effects of harmaloids taken sublingually shouldn't even be significant, right? I could be mistaken, but if it can't even activate oral DMT, than it's not going to cause any bad reactions with tyramine (not that it even necessarily would in common oral doses and common levels of tyramine anyway).
The significance of this is not whether one can scarf down fermented foods during a trip, but whether having had tyramine containing foods shortly prior to a trip should cause one any undue anxiety or to forgo the trip unnecessarily.
What one should probably consume more of is watermelon
The only food that one should avoid is probably grapefruit. From wikipedia: Grapefruit - Wikipedia
Also, the MAOI effects of harmaloids taken sublingually shouldn't even be significant, right? I could be mistaken, but if it can't even activate oral DMT, than it's not going to cause any bad reactions with tyramine (not that it even necessarily would in common oral doses and common levels of tyramine anyway).
The significance of this is not whether one can scarf down fermented foods during a trip, but whether having had tyramine containing foods shortly prior to a trip should cause one any undue anxiety or to forgo the trip unnecessarily.
What one should probably consume more of is watermelon
Lol! Well I wouldn't go quite that far. I think it's VERY safe to assume that once your past the point it can potentiate tryptamines then it's safe enough for tyramine. You really have to get a shitload of tyramine on your bloodstream AND have your brain MAO-A knocked out to get into trouble. Even then there's a lot about this we still don't understand. Even on irreversible full-spectrum MAOI's you can eat proscribed foods without *always* having any difficulty. But there's certainly no harm in playing it extra-safe.
God knows, the first time someone eats 15 over-ripe avocados two hours after ingesting aya the media will have a field day--"Woman dies from overdose of deadly drug Ayahuasca! Film at eleven!"
There's a rational place between the fear-mongering, "Don't eat ANYTHING with ANY tyramine or tyrosine for TWO WEEKS before and after any Aya journey..." and the denialists, "It's COMPLETELY safe! Everyone drink Aya and eat some cheese!"
I'd say 36 hours is a reasonable compromise between those two. 6 hours is probably still completely safe.
God knows I love wikipedia. I've done quite a bit of writing and editing for them myself. But they're wrong on that one. Maybe if I have time later I'll go fix it.
Completely correct. Unless you're also doing large amounts of tyramine sublingually (or any other method that avoids first pass metabolism) then it's first pass metabolism you need to be concerned with. If the tyramine never gets into your blood stream then no worries. And the smaller sublingual doses, completely bypassing first pass metabolism... truly no worries.
There could conceivably be some danger if they were eaten *very* shortly beforehand. Wait a few hours in such cases. No need to utterly forgo the experience, just make sure those fermented foods are thoroughly digested before adding any MAOI to the mix.
xlplytsym said:
Wrong in what way? I'm curious. I've always heard of grapefruit having compounds that work similarly to SSRI's. Whatever the case, would it be safe to ingest in conjunction with an RIMA or MAOI?
69ron
Rising Star
Xlplytsym, we all know caapi has never caused the "cheese syndrome" in anyone.
Give me your proof that caapi can cause the "cheese syndrome".
Caapi is often used by people who eat aged cheese all the time. In South America pretty much everyone eats aged cheese all the time.
I eat it every day.
This is utter bullshit.
Give us proof. You brought it up. You claim its dangerous. Prove it.
That is from Erowid.
Give me your proof that caapi can cause the "cheese syndrome".
Caapi is often used by people who eat aged cheese all the time. In South America pretty much everyone eats aged cheese all the time.
I eat it every day.
This is utter bullshit.
Give us proof. You brought it up. You claim its dangerous. Prove it.
That is from Erowid.
I meant wrong in the sense of the word "only." I'm really not sure about the grapefruit juice thing. Grapefruit juice is an inhibitor of the cytochrome P-450 enzymes. These enzymes are known to metabolize SSRI's in the liver. Drinking grapefruit juice while taking an SSRI can create a toxic reaction because the chemical ingredient will build to toxic levels in the bloodstream, but I've never heard it works "similarly" to an SSRI. THH is a mild SSRI... that could be the risk. THH seems to be well tolerated at far higher doses than needed to be psychoactive, though...
Maybe the rule of thumb is, again, better safe than sorry. How difficult is it to avoid grapefruit juice for 6 hours (or even 36 hours) after ingesting harmaloids? On the other hand I don't see this as serious a risk as tyramine rich foods. Maybe I'm wrong about that.