The Atheist DMT Experience

[Eliyahu]

Wouldn't it be interesting if atheists had fundamentally different experiences on DMT than "believers"? Like only seeing abstract patterns and such rather than contact with entities and journeys to other worlds? But it doesn't seem to work that way, what you believe in apparently doesn't matter too much. You're going to get shown whatever you're going to get shown, and pretty much all you can do is put either a rational or spiritual spin on it for yourself when you come back, depending on your preference. Or at least that's how it seems to me.

Interesting thoughts here. I find it quite amazing that I've met the being that called itself God multiple times and I'm an atheist. At first it was tempting to believe in God but after integrating these strange experiences it only reinforced my non belief. I have an open mind but a skeptics heart. If there was a God I think there would be solid evidence for that being. It makes nonsense to me that an all powerful omnipotent creator can exist without ever leaving a single trace. Its illogical at best just plain silly IMO.

By the same token I see no reason why an ultimate creator being should not actively conceal itself. I think God hides from us in order to spurn the process of our natural development. How would the sytem of free will function if God was available to everyone no matter what?

In my opinion God is itself unconditional love in every sense. For what ever reason I believe that certain people choose to put themselves in a position of suffereing in their lives, whether it is a karmic or a deliberate reason..

So if unconditional love was poured down on everyone then it would deny many people the free will for them to choose to suffer. It may sound strange but suffering does serve correctional purposes in life. Consider the fact that the most incredible art, music and literature has been historically produced in the most poverty stricken social enviroments.

I believe the alchemical metaphor that states "the crucible is for silver and the furnace is for gold" says it all about the purpose of suffering in life.

IMO earth is an advanced learning ground. A sort of character building childhood to prepare a soul for the rest of it's eternal existence IMO.

To allow people the free will to suffer of their own choosing is not the only reason for God to hide himself from the world. IMO the spiritual plane is literally a battle ground and God is not unlike a mighty King. In a time of war what King would not desire to have only the most devoted followers enter into his private domain?

Crazy Horse wrote:

olympus mon wrote:
Interesting thoughts here. I find it quite amazing that I've met the being that called itself God multiple times and I'm an atheist. At first it was tempting to believe in God but after integrating these strange experiences it only reinforced my non belief. I have an open mind but a skeptics heart.


Right, that's exactly the kind of thing I was thinking of. And I think this is the key to answering the OP's original question. He wanted to understand how an atheist could have a transformative experience without it being "spiritual", as if a religious person would see angels and demons but an atheist wouldn't be able to experience something like that and still get something useful out of it, because it would be in conflict with their beliefs.

But I think the difference is all about how the experience is interpreted, rather than the content of the experience itself. Let's say that Olympus Mon had the exact same vision that Eliyahu describes in his "how I got my name" thread. Would this force him to start believing in the objective reality of God and angels, and make him want to read up on all the stories of Elijah? Not at all. Although he might, I'm sure that some "non-believers" have been converted to a more spiritual viewpoint by using psychedelics. But as a person with a strong rational tendency instead of taking it literally he would most likely analyze that "vision" similar to how you would interpret a dream, and think something like "hm, well those 'angels' probably represented my desire for self improvement and personal growth, and those demon things were all the doubts and fears getting in the way of accomplishing my goals. And being told I'm a biblical figure and cheered by the crowd like that might mean I'm feeling a little unimportant and underappreciated in my life right now, I should try to do something about that." And then this understanding could lead him to work harder to achieve his ambitions and get more of the recognition he is lacking in his everyday life, thereby increasing his overall personal happiness and satisfaction. All without any need to adopt a belief in God.

Just as one possible example. Maybe I'm way off base, but that's more or less how it appears to me

If that were the case I suppose my DMT trips would have no more value than regular deep dream states. I personally see no point in just trying to deny. I feel like telling myself it's not real all the time would get pretty old real quick.

I have had entities straight up tell me that they are real.. What good does it do me to question that over and over?

 

[Crazyhorse]

If that were the case I suppose my DMT trips would have no more value than regular deep dream states. I personally see no point in just trying to deny. I feel like telling myself it's not real all the time would get pretty old real quick.

I have had entities straight up tell me that they are real.. What good does it do me to question that over and over?

Sure, YOU feel that way because of YOUR experiences and beliefs and how these chemicals affect YOU. And that's fine. What I'm talking about is how they might affect someone else with OTHER experiences and OTHER beliefs differently, in such a way that they may be able to get at least as much real, tangible improvement in their real selves and their real lives. So how is that denying anything or saying it isn't "real"? I haven't said that these experiences are equivalent to regular dreams at all, I personally believe they are all together different. I'm just pointing out that it is possible to interpret them in a similar fashion and get something meaningful out of it without needing a belief in God.

Also for the record, I'm not saying this is how I personally view these things at all. I consider myself a very spiritual person and have a very beneficial relationship with my concept of "god". This concept just doesn't allow me to see my way as the right or only way, I am forced to consider all perspectives as equally valid. I am not downplaying the importance or personal significance of your vision by suggesting it could be interpreted differently. I'm simply pointing out that it CAN be, and that different people can experience the same thing in very different ways, for the sake of trying to help you understand the thing you said you wanted to know. If you're just going to automatically dismiss any answer that doesn't fit your own way of seeing things, what's the point of asking?

 

[Eliyahu]

If that were the case I suppose my DMT trips would have no more value than regular deep dream states. I personally see no point in just trying to deny. I feel like telling myself it's not real all the time would get pretty old real quick.

I have had entities straight up tell me that they are real.. What good does it do me to question that over and over?

Sure, YOU feel that way because of YOUR experiences and beliefs and how these chemicals affect YOU. And that's fine. What I'm talking about is how they might affect someone else with OTHER experiences and OTHER beliefs differently, in such a way that they may be able to get at least as much real, tangible improvement in their real selves and their real lives. So how is that denying anything or saying it isn't "real"? I haven't said that these experiences are equivalent to regular dreams at all, I personally believe they are all together different. I'm just pointing out that it is possible to interpret them in a similar fashion and get something meaningful out of it without needing a belief in God.

Also for the record, I'm not saying this is how I personally view these things at all. I consider myself a very spiritual person and have a very beneficial relationship with my concept of "god". This concept just doesn't allow me to see my way as the right or only way, I am forced to consider all perspectives as equally valid. I am not downplaying the importance or personal significance of your vision by suggesting it could be interpreted differently. I'm simply pointing out that it CAN be, and that different people can experience the same thing in very different ways, for the sake of trying to help you understand the thing you said you wanted to know. If you're just going to automatically dismiss any answer that doesn't fit your own way of seeing things, what's the point of asking?

I wasn't trying to be dismissive of your viewpoint I was merley attempting to clarify my position. Your suggetion is a completely valid one and I believe trips could be interpreted in this manner but I just tend to think it would be much less effective.

I view treating your trips as real in the same way I view lucid dreaming.
That is to say I treat my trips as real just as I treat my dreams as real.

I have taken psychedelics in one form or another just about every week for the last 20 years.
Ever since I seriously began considering the idea that my trips contained actual paranormal phenomena (20 years ago) I noticed that it gave me a degree of control over the experience that i never had until I became flexible to the idea that there was something real going on.

I'ts called lucid tripping :d

 

[Crazyhorse]

I wasn't trying to be dismissive of your viewpoint I was merley attempting to clarify my position.

Ever since I seriously began considering the idea that my trips contained actual paranormal phenomena it gave me a degree of control over the experience that i never had until I became flexible to the idea that there was something real going on.

I'ts called lucid tripping :d

I'm down with that, sounds good to me. And again, it's not even my own viewpoint per-se, it's just one of any number of possible ones that might work better for someone with a more rationalistic, logical mindset. I'm sure you can understand that Mr. Spock.

 

[Eliyahu]

I wasn't trying to be dismissive of your viewpoint I was merley attempting to clarify my position.

Ever since I seriously began considering the idea that my trips contained actual paranormal phenomena it gave me a degree of control over the experience that i never had until I became flexible to the idea that there was something real going on.

I'ts called lucid tripping :d

I'm down with that, sounds good to me. And again, it's not even my own viewpoint per-se, it's just one of any number of possible ones that might work better for someone with a more rationalistic, logical mindset. I'm sure you can understand that Mr. Spock.

NA-noo NA-noo :|

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

I think attempting to define spirituality adequately will be just as much of a semantic boondoggle as it was trying to define atheism on this thread. In essence, there are the narrow, strict definitions which are implied in the words themselves and have the longest historical usage... but it is also undeniable that both words have been broadened considerably in the modern time in vernacular usage.

For a lot of people these days, being spiritual amounts to nothing more than a vague sense of morality and perhaps an attraction to the trappings of archetypal spirituality. By the broadest sense of the word, you are spiritual if you burn incense and have a few new age or pop psychology books on your coffee table.

Other people talk about spiritual experiences as being anything that touches them deeply or sheds some insight into their deeper inner workings. By this definition, psychoanalysis is a spiritual experience.

I tend to stick with the stricter uses of the term, and find it odd that people who don't believe in spirit would think that they are spiritual. I think that if you don't accept the existence of immaterial realms, prana/chi, chakrahs/energy centers, or trancendental aspects to reality... what really is the point of saying you are spiritual?

Now, it is possible to be atheist and spiritual in my way of thinking... many Buddhists fall into this category, as do people who practice esoteric spiritual artforms while rejecting any concept of a deity.

But thinking your experiences are spiritual while claiming to disbelieve everything about spirituality? I don't see it. I would say such people have what I will call "profound" experiences which point at spirituality... but then they summarily reject those experiences as not objectively valid and choose to interpret them in a manner that is anything but spiritual.

That is just my opinon... people are free to use the words however they like.

 

[Eliyahu]

HF

Maybe you should change your avatar caption to say "WordWeaver". :thumb_up:

 

[Korey]

HF, was that post just in regards to me?

If so, I didn't say I didn't believe in spirituality. I'm actually quite interested in transcendentalism and Buddhism at this point in my life. I just don't believe in deities or angels, and the entities I "meet" I consider a part of myself.

Also Eliyahu, I see you constantly saying that entities have told you that they're "real" The word "real" is a little bit confusing here, because to me, the entities are real as well. With the possibility that contact with entities with psychedelics is an internal working, I don't think it makes the experience any less "real."

 

[Eliyahu]

HF, was that post just in regards to me?

If so, I didn't say I didn't believe in spirituality. I'm actually quite interested in transcendentalism and Buddhism at this point in my life. I just don't believe in deities or angels, and the entities I "meet" I consider a part of myself.

Also Eliyahu, I see you constantly saying that entities have told you that they're "real" The word "real" is a little bit confusing here, because to me, the entities are real as well. With the possibility that contact with entities with psychedelics is an internal working, I don't think it makes the experience any less "real."

But haven't you been implying the psychedelic experience is basically all in your head?

To me that qualifies as imaginary/pretend or am I oversimplifying it?

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

HF, was that post just in regards to me?

If so, I didn't say I didn't believe in spirituality. I'm actually quite interested in transcendentalism and Buddhism at this point in my life. I just don't believe in deities or angels, and the entities I "meet" I consider a part of myself.

Also Eliyahu, I see you constantly saying that entities have told you that they're "real" The word "real" is a little bit confusing here, because to me, the entities are real as well. With the possibility that contact with entities with psychedelics is an internal working, I don't think it makes the experience any less "real."

I wasn't addressing you specifically... a number of people here have claimed to have "spiritual" experiences while in basically the same breath asserting that they don't believe in any of the basic concepts that underly spiritual matters.

Naturally, as i said, this is fairly subjective... and I apologize if it sounded overly judgmental. Calling something spiritual is not the same as practicing spiritualism and having some spice journeys that touch your sense of spirituality (whatever that may be) does not make one a spiritualist.

Transcendentalism and especially Buddhism are pretty big tents, and much of what is there is quite spiritual. A lot of it crosses over into actual theism. But IMHO belief in deities is not a prerequisite for spiritual experiences, and even believing that it is all an inner experience doesn't make it less spiritual... there is no way to even prove the existence of an external world as it is... and spirituality is all about the inner path to transcendental states anyway.

I find, though, that people who really believe that their journeys are completely physical products of chemistry and neurology... are not really spiritual. There is nothing wrong with having faith in a materialist model of the world... it is just the antithesis of the spiritual model, and is not nearly as solid and rational as people like to think. Materialism doesn't equal rationality, and the spiritual can be extremely logical and reasonable when you get to actually working with it. It may not qualify as a science, but it also works with repeatable experimentation confirming the theorems and formulas passed down by some very smart blokes.

That inner space there is an infinite playground of wonder. Luckily, we don't have to reinvent the wheel.

 

[Korey]

HF, was that post just in regards to me?

If so, I didn't say I didn't believe in spirituality. I'm actually quite interested in transcendentalism and Buddhism at this point in my life. I just don't believe in deities or angels, and the entities I "meet" I consider a part of myself.

Also Eliyahu, I see you constantly saying that entities have told you that they're "real" The word "real" is a little bit confusing here, because to me, the entities are real as well. With the possibility that contact with entities with psychedelics is an internal working, I don't think it makes the experience any less "real."

But haven't you been implying the psychedelic experience is basically all in your head?

To me that qualifies as imaginary/pretend or am I oversimplifying it?

It could "be all in your head." But if it is, why does that make it any less real? I think it is over simplifying it by assuming that it's not meaningful or "real" just because it occurs within one's own mind. I am proposing that is is only happening in one's own mind, but that it is possible that these internal realms one may experience with the help of psychedelics are just as real as consensus reality.

I assume by calling them "real" you're saying that they exist autonomously, and all I'm proposing is that they may exist internally.

 

[URBY]

Traffic... LOTS of traffic... Maakin words up to the Flintstone's tuune.....

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

It could "be all in your head." But if it is, why does that make it any less real? I think it is over simplifying it by assuming that it's not meaningful or "real" just because it occurs within one's own mind. I am proposing that is is only happening in one's own mind, but that it is possible that these internal realms one may experience with the help of psychedelics are just as real as consensus reality.

I assume by calling them "real" you're saying that they exist autonomously, and all I'm proposing is that they may exist internally.

It is basically like I was saying above. You can have a viewpoint that these things are all internal and be coming from a spiritual model, a material model, a rational model... or some other view entirely.

The point is more that if you ascribe to a purely material model of the world, then your idea of inner probably means "just neurons" which is a distinctly un-spiritual stance.

 

[Eliyahu]

HF said:

Luckily, we don't have to reinvent the wheel.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

 

[Korey]

It could "be all in your head." But if it is, why does that make it any less real? I think it is over simplifying it by assuming that it's not meaningful or "real" just because it occurs within one's own mind. I am proposing that is is only happening in one's own mind, but that it is possible that these internal realms one may experience with the help of psychedelics are just as real as consensus reality.

I assume by calling them "real" you're saying that they exist autonomously, and all I'm proposing is that they may exist internally.

It is basically like I was saying above. You can have a viewpoint that these things are all internal and be coming from a spiritual model, a material model, a rational model... or some other view entirely.

The point is more that if you ascribe to a purely material model of the world, then your idea of inner probably means "just neurons" which is a distinctly un-spiritual stance.

That was my point earlier, my only worldview ISN'T material, and it definitely isn't solely spirituality. I guess this comment brings us back to the point of the thread, I'm an agnostic, and I guess I also look at these experiences agnostically as well. And I understand what you're saying but I think it's kind of over simplifying things a bit. I can't pretend to know anything about spiritual realms because it's TOO subjective to record information properly, as we can see with many diverse beliefs regarding spirituality and psychedelics.

I respect where you're coming from, but don't be so quick to dismiss me purely because I think the experience is internal. Currently, I don't hold any strong belief in spirits, but I also acknowledge that it's a possibility, and I probably wouldn't even consider it as a possibility if it weren't for my psychedelic experiences.

 

[URBY]

I find, though, that people who really believe that their journeys are completely physical products of chemistry and neurology... are not really spiritual. There is nothing wrong with having faith in a materialist model of the world... it is just the antithesis of the spiritual model, and is not nearly as solid and rational as people like to think. Materialism doesn't equal rationality, and the spiritual can be extremely logical and reasonable when you get to actually working with it. It may not qualify as a science, but it also works with repeatable experimentation confirming the theorems and formulas passed down by some very smart blokes.

HF,

I am saying this strictly to you. Just making sure its loud enough for everyone else to hear....

This IS ABSOLUTELY the most simple, elegant, AND eloquent collection of words that can be viewed with equal objectivity from both sides of this "science/spirituality" belief spectrum/fence/debate. I either believe a "truth" or disbelieve a "falsehood". One cannot seek "truth" in ANY of its forms without keeping the word belief in AT LEAST ONE of its forms in their pocket IMO.

-----
-----

We should push this conversation away from WHAT we all "feel is truth" in existence and towards HOW each of us use what we feel to manipulate our shared realities.

Ill give it a shot first!
Lets go simple...

At least 3 times in the last week alone I focused(thought) about what I was SPECIFICALLY in the mood to eat that day. I didnt think about how tasty it would be, I imagined it in front of me. I visualized the plate on an empty surface near me where ever I was within a number of given moments. THOSE VERY DAYS that I do this THAT SPECIFIC FOOD would show up around me. Not a situation like I went to the store or a diner and bought it; it just showed up by a strangers hand, ready to eat. Not limited to but including the specific combination of ingredients on the pizza. I have been doing this on a regular basis for almost two months now.

I am MANIFESTING what I want into my reality PHYSICALLY. Seriously yall.

Maybe I am every bit as delusional as I have been accused of being HERE in recent memory. (not bitter, just acknowledging)
Maybe I am onto something "real" here.

Maybe anyone that tries it wont be disappointed...¿¡

 

[NeXuS_DeSiGn]

At the risk of sounding simple, I feel that joy, serenity, understanding, and revelation, as well as their negative counterparts are the truly important constituents of the spice. It is within the greater context of your beliefs as an individual that they gain their numinous validity. Atheist, agnostic, theist... None of these persuasions are empty, each and every one is full to the brim, and capable of feeling and experiencing the important things we all have, in every imaginable way.

 

[Eliyahu]

At the risk of sounding simple, I feel that joy, serenity, understanding, and revelation, as well as their negative counterparts are the truly important constituents of the spice. It is within the greater context of your beliefs as an individual that they gain their numinous validity. Atheist, agnostic, theist... None of these persuasions are empty, each and every one is full to the brim, and capable of feeling and experiencing the important things we all have, in every imaginable way.

What about those folks who view the glass as half empty??? Would that also be a persuasion that's full to the brim?

 

[URBY]

yes elijah, even though THE GLASS is half full/empty, THE PERSON is filled with THAT or whatever "belief"

 

[Hyperspace Fool]

I find, though, that people who really believe that their journeys are completely physical products of chemistry and neurology... are not really spiritual. There is nothing wrong with having faith in a materialist model of the world... it is just the antithesis of the spiritual model, and is not nearly as solid and rational as people like to think. Materialism doesn't equal rationality, and the spiritual can be extremely logical and reasonable when you get to actually working with it. It may not qualify as a science, but it also works with repeatable experimentation confirming the theorems and formulas passed down by some very smart blokes.

HF,

I am saying this strictly to you. Just making sure its loud enough for everyone else to hear....

This IS ABSOLUTELY the most simple, elegant, AND eloquent collection of words that can be viewed with equal objectivity from both sides of this "science/spirituality" belief spectrum/fence/debate. I either believe a "truth" or disbelieve a "falsehood". One cant seek "truth" in ANY of its forms with keeping the word belief in AT LEAST ONE of its forms in their pocket IMO.

-----
-----

We should push this conversation away from WHAT we all "feel is truth" in existence and towards HOW each of us use what we feel to manipulate our shared realities.

Ill give it a shot first!
Lets go simple...

At least 3 times in the last week alone I focused(thought) about what I was SPECIFICALLY in the mood to eat that day. I didnt think about how tasty it would be, I imagined it in front of me. I visualized the plate on an empty surface near me where ever I was within a number of given moments. THOSE VERY DAYS that I do this THAT SPECIFIC FOOD would show up around me. Not a situation like I went to the store or a diner and bought it; it just showed up by a strangers hand, ready to eat. Not limited to but including the specific combination of ingredients on the pizza. I have been doing this on a regular basis for almost two months now.

I am MANIFESTING what I want into my reality PHYSICALLY. Seriously yall.

Maybe I am every bit as delusional as I have been accused of being HERE in recent memory. (not bitter, just acknowledging)
Maybe I am onto something "real" here.

Maybe anyone that tries it wont be disappointed...¿¡

Merci beaucoup.

As for manifesting food, I too have done this and been jaw-dropping astounded at how well it worked. Even still, I typically forget to practice it and slip into the take it as it comes mode (which is fine).

I don't think it is delusional to recognize that there is something to the visualization and manifestation powers of the mind. I balk at the hokier new age takes on this stuff with The Secret and What The Bleep coming to mind right off the bat... and yet, I do think the "Law Of Attraction" stuff works.

How it works, is a matter for debate (perhaps its own thread even).

I remember one time on a remote beach in Honduras, after days of feeling deprived, my buddy and I began visualizing our 3 M's (marijuana, mujeres y mangos) of which we not only had none, but hadn't had even an inkling of a hope for any of them in a little while. Lo and behold... I shit you not... a few girls came down the beach bearing mangoes less than an hour after a local kid came literally out of the bushes to deliver us some ganj. We hadn't asked anyone for anything, and we hadn't even moved more than 100m. We really and truly did nothing to manifest these things other than will them to come to us. Bear in mind that we were in the middle of nowhere, many hours from the nearest village... a village that was drier than a tumbleweed when we passed through.

What does this prove? Jack shit... but it was freaking awesome.