Trying to improve Acacia information

[nen888]

.the tree in photos posted by sinful_speed (acacia id thread) was identified by rahlii (thanks) as
Adenanthera pavonia ('coralwood')..in India the seeds are said to be intoxicating and to be used to treat boils and headache..components of the seeds include lignoceric acid, O-acetyethanolamine & galacticol ..as Snu Voogelbreinder says (in Garden Of Eden) - "Caution should be exercised with the seeds of this plant, as the nature of their 'intoxicating' properties is unclear ."
..the genus is unfortunately named as it is NOT an Anadenanthera (as in the S. American Yopo trees), an easy confusion to make (though they are both legumes)
...

..on Acacia chemistry frontiers..
a couple of australian species have displayed mild oral activity without MAOIs, not explainable by the known alkaloids (i.e tryptamines require MAOI, and amounts of beta-carboline are small)
..this has lead to the search for flavinoids and fatty-acids..it is also possible there are more complex indoles broken down in basic extractions (see Complex Indole Alkaloids ('Hyper-Tryptamines') from plants)
.

 

[nen888]

..hey there yatiqiri, nice tree..!
i'm still checking out a few possibilities of what it could be, but Acacia constricta is a good possibility..
..it's naitve to Mexico and the southwestern United States (incl. the Sonoran desert), known as the whitethorn acacia..in arid conditions it is a stragglier, shrub-like tree..

alkaloid test references are scant, with a single report of it containing ß-methyl-phenethylamine
[Glasby, John Stephen (1991). Dictionary of Plants Containing Secondary Metabolites. CRC Press. pp. 2. ISBN 0850664233.]
wira said "..the identification of the alkaloid present was tentative."


..there are 43 Acacias (incl. introduced) recorded from Bolivia, in this list: fabaceae bolivia checklist click on 'acacia' in fabaceae list

..a real beauty you've spotted there, whatever's in it, yatiqiri..!
[EDIT: i now believe the tree is likely Acacia tortuosa (found Carribean, northern South America) see bottom p12]


here's some shots of Acacia constricta in the USA & Mexico:

 

[nen888]

..yeah, if i came across a tree like that i would probably politely investigate if there are alkaloids in there, yatiqiri..
A. constricta is a good starter ID for now..it certainly needs more testing..
note there are a few interesting australian species recorded in the above bolivia checklist, and some very rare natives.. (click 'List of Taxa')

South-East Queenslanders, i've had a second report of good A. blakei activity from phyllodes (thanks chocobeastle), but the species (& it's sub-species var. blakei) are not at all common..
conservation and planting of this tree should be the highest priority, then it can be better studied..growing it in it's native regions or sub-tropical areas should be easy..might start an acacia cultivation tips thread in Ethnobotancal Garden..
.
EDIT: choco meant another species, so only 1 (reliable though) report of dmt in a. blakei

 

[nen888]

..A. constricta reminded me that there are some other USA Acacias which have had alkaloid tests..


A. schottii, A. texensis (now Acacia angustissima var. texensis) & A. roemeriana (all 3 native to Texas and the southern US)
Camp & Norvell (1966) found alkaloids in the leaves tentatively identified as mainly N-methyl-phenethylamine..i have not studied the paper, but other early acacia chemistry studies have also been highly tentative..
White's (1940s-50s) identification of tryptamine in some australian acacias was questioned by Roveli (1967), and a number of plants he said contained tryptamine have turned out to be DMT (e.g. acuminata, longifolia)
..as wira says earlier, the psychoactivity of N-methyl-phenethylamine or ß-methyl-phenethylamine is not clearly known..wide open for careful research..
in general the majority of alkaloids confirmed in acacias have been tryptamines so, unless north american species differ in this regard from the rest of the world, we should expect to find more tryptamines in the USA
..there are a few american species that have never been chemically investigated..
also from the southern states are A. angustissima (possibly some DMT; p.3#47) & A. berlandieri (possibly a lot of things,p.6) & A. gregii (Catclaw Acacia - Texas, Arizona, N. Mexico)[see next post]

.

..a note on Acacia simplicifolia (syn. simplex) from New Caledonia, which i know a few nexians around the world
are growing..the total stem bark alkaloid yeild (Poupat et al. 1976) was 3.6%..!
this comprised 22%DMT, 40%NMT, 12.7% 2meTHBC, and traces of formyltrptamine[see next post]..sounds interesting..
it is also found on some Pacific islands and in Argentina..photo p.5 this thread..
.

below are 2 photos each of the Texan acacias A. roemeriana, A.'texensis', & A. schottii:

 

[nen888]

..just to add a bit more on US Acacias with Alkaloids,Camp & Norvell (1966) also found N-methyl-phenethylamine in Acacia gregii
they found the same tentative alkaloid in Acacia angustissima (see p.3#47) which is interesting given firstly, the CSIRO finding of tryptamines as well, and then

..roots tested tentatively positive for DMT and 5-meO-DMT (harv. Mar.), though a second test was negative.
Traces of 5-meO-DMT were also tentatively detected in the seeds. There exists one report of the use of roots [presumably in an ayahuasca analoge] giving some psychoactivity; others...did not report any effect

(Trout 1997) taken from Voogelbreinder (2009)
..so really the court is wide open as to what's in it and when, and how var. 'texensis' may differ..the Camp & Rovelli alkaloid screenings of these acacias seems to have been broad & general..
so adventurous researchers never know what may turn up, but alkaloids are confirmed in at least7 american species:
angustissima, berlandieri, constricta, gregii, roemeriana, schotii & var. 'texensis' (of angustissima) ..californian native acacias remain an interesting mystery, chemically..what's in all US acacias really needs to be clarified..
.

an afterword on Formyltryptamine in A. simplicifolia, a trace component, it was thought to possibly be an artifact of the extraction process in the study..in trace amounts it shouldn't present problems..
the DMT/NMT/2meTHBC experience should be (based on other plants) a usually pleasant one..

below is Acacia gregii (Catclaw Acacia - Texas, Arizona, Mexico)

 

[chocobeastie]

oh no, Nen, I meant Acacia Bakeri, not Blakei!

which has been tested by one friend to contain DMT! It is super rare, but could be a perfect tree for cultivation, as you can supposedly obtain a very high yield of clear crystals from the phyllodes. More investigative work is needed!

Bakeri is a perfect example of how over zealous harvesting can almost eliminate a species, as in the 19th Century it was highly sought after as timber for cabinet making and was more readily available to find than, say, Red Cedar.

Species like Acacia Obtusifolia are so widespread, and there are so many of them out there, often in remote locations, I doubt this would ever be an issue with this tree, even if things get really crazy!

 

[nen888]

..oh, sorry and thanks again choco ..i've been accessing net mobily lately so bit too rushed..so i do really rely on anyone who reads this thread to correct me if i make a mistake..
..i am aware of marblewood..and yes that is a rare one (200-300trees?) ..have cultivated and found high percentage alkaloids phyllodes; Webb (1949) got ++++alkaloid +ve; also..at the moment i'm mainly concerned about A. sp.'C', for reasons a few in the underground may understand..
..there a a couple of other rare ones i haven't gone into because they're inaccessible to most, and i want to find some more really common ones..
one thing about obtusifolia, though, it is my understanding that the 'mainly just dmt' varieties are not so common, though certainly more prevalent than the above mentioned species..that said, other aklaloids can add depth..
..back to your mentioned species - i would assume most people living near where it grows would grasp how uncommon it is..seeds are avaialble in the local forest-regeneration scene.
..

 

[nen888]

..i'm being queried on Acacia jurema (is it infact M. tenuiflora or another mimosa?) ..my information is second hand and mainly comes from afro-brazillian ayahuasca spiritual gruops..i'm looking into it more..i know that acacia botany in the americas is a lot less revised than the rest of the world..some species have gone backwards and forwards between mimosa and acacia..
two new Acacias were 'discovered' as recently as 1996 in Brazil (A. santossi and A. olivensana), they are 'bi-pinnate', meaning the leaves resemble mimosa...

 

[wira]

Re: Acacia jurema, yeah, I'm wondering if that has come about from an invented common name, ie. 'this is an Acacia used as jurema, so around here we call it Acacia jurema' and someone has written it down and reported it (still trying to find any published report other than unreferenced Wikipedia entries) as though it's the Latin name of the plant being used. Given the blurred lines between Mimosa and Acacia, and the fact that non-botanists often don't know much about Linnaean botany, it is easy to imagine this happening. (btw, not saying that people living in the jungle don't know their plants, just that they don't necessarily know the Latin names)
That said, the name Acacia jurema Martius does exist, but a friend recently tracked down the cited source for the published description, and found only a mention of the name in passing, but no description. So, at this point I'm uncertain about whether this was ever an accepted species name, and whatever was originally referred to as this might just be what we now know as one of the Mimosas or Acacias used in the context of jurema 'wine'.
If anyone can locate a later published description for this species name, or a reputable listing of it as a synonym for something else, please share it with us!

 

[nen888]

..the previously mentioned brazilian acacias are described in
"Two new species of Acacia (Leguminosae: Mimosoideae) from Brazil" Lewis, G.P. 1996 Royal Botanic Gardens, Kew (A. santossi and A. olivensana)
they are from Bahia, an area rich with afro-brazilian culture, including afro-spiritual 'ayahuasca' (under different names) ..the leaves are very similar to mimosa..
(there are no googleable images available, i'm trying to source the botanical illustrations, but so far only have the taxonomic descriptions)
...

as we looked at US acacias which have phenethylamines, i will mention the australian PEA species:
(though i should add, again, that the activity of these PEAs is not well explored..i.e are they stimulant, empathogenic, or other? )

A. adunca - reported over 2% phenethylamines..
A. harpophylla - 0.3-0.6% phenethylamine, hordenine ration of 2:3 [Fitzgerald 1964; CSIRO 1990] 1 report psychoactive
A. holosericia - 1.2% hordenine in bark [Fitzgerald 1964]
A. kettlewelliae - 1.5-1.88% mainly phenethylamine, N-methyl-2-phenethylamine [White 1957; Fitzgerald 1964]

hordenine (said to be stimulant, though one person said it to be slightly sedative) is also found in certain cacti..
.
below are Acacias harpophylla, holosericia, & kettlewelliae:

 

[nen888]

..also, i haven't heard any more from W.A. about A. cyclops (what's happenin? )..unfortunately i don't live near this plant..follow-ups would be good,
any more luck Primal Wisdom..?

 

[nen888]

..here's a recent subthreshold but interesting A. maidenii with syrian rue nexus report, probably a fair amount of NMT.. increasing the acacia dosage would increase effects..the extraction seems a bit inefficient, 3x40mins-1hr in water (like trad. ayahuasca) suggested...
Acacia Maidenii and Syrian Rue Ayahuasca from First Steps In Hyperspace

 

[nen888]

..i want to draw attention to a recent report Using the leaves of Acacia Acuminata. - A/B - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus on wild damage to A. acuminata which echoes the monstrous and greedy assult on A. obtusifolia a few years back..
..most of these species are easy and quick to grow..as the thread says: THERE IS NO NEED TO TOUCH THE BARK OF THESE TREES IN THE WILD..

i think there needs to be more awareness of 'ETHICAL' DMT..
if you are offered 'dmt' (particularly in australia) it is good to ask: what tree is it from? was the tree killed? etc
don't let power-hungry and greedy people (who have no real ecological or spiritual connection to these plants) pervert the gifts of nature which are free and accessible to all of us..
..some of these 'dmt-evangelists' are doing you no favours by involving you in the abuse of the environment..

leaves and small branches grow back quickly..trunk bark never does fully, and the tree often dies..

i have seen one phenomenon over the years..
people who disrespect trees..it may take a few years, but they'll stop smoking it (especially pure crystal) as the spirit of these beings will come right into their 'dmt-world' and have a stern word or so..these salesmen eventually give up or just smoke changa because they are not in truth..
LOVE and it will come back to you..
just Take, and you may have some giving back to do..

.

 

[nen888]

..in the interests of self-empowerment, here is a 'Simple Person's Acacia-Tryptamine Tech'


1) collect phyllodes (leaves), incl. recently fallen - cut with scissors or put in coffee grinder.
2) soak overnight in vodka/ethanol/methanol (50%) plus water (non-tap) and dilute acetic acid (vinegar: 5-10%).
3) simmer to boil 3 X 45 minutes, changing and keeping liquid each time; filter several times with cheesecloth or coffee filter paper. reduce volume combined liquid till not quite viscous.
4) bring to pH 10-11 with sodium hydroxide. Extract X2 with an equal portion of napatha/dichloromethane/hexane or d-limonine. Clean solvent portion (after separating) with salty NAOH+water (this is optional) .
5) either evaporate or freezer precipitate (as described in various nexus techs)

theoretical yield from A. acuminata leaves: (with content at 0.6%, can be twice that)
1kg leaves (half a large home soup saucepan) = 6 grams DMT = 120-180 doses (vaporised)
.

 

[cheif hobo stank]

hi nen, regarding this issue of threatening harvesting practices which by the sounds of things are becoming more and more common around the country, I feel it would be prudent to remove mention of species that are listed as VULNERABLE by the Threatened Species Conservation Act. I know you have good intentions with this thread and it seems it is about increasing awareness of the range of 'useful' species around the country, and this WILL take some strain off the 2 or 3 species that have been hammered by harvesters over the last 15 years.

BUT I really do question the wisdom of listing those Vulnerable species , especially on a publicly viewable forum. It would take only a decade (give or take) to wipe out a couple of species very limited populations through unethical harvesting. And we KNOW there are unscrupulous harvesters out there, we only need to visit places which have been known as "good spots" for a long time, once really beautiful forests of tall mature obtusifolia that are now literally Acacia graveyards. I'm talking about North Coast NSW and the Blue Mountains, and we both know where the 2 most vulnerable species lie in this state.

Anyways thats my rant, has been playing on my mind since I started seeing mention of a couple of species on this and other forums.

 

[nen888]

cheif hobo stank wrote:

BUT I really do question the wisdom of listing those Vulnerable species , especially on a publicly viewable forum. It would take only a decade (give or take) to wipe out a couple of species very limited populations through unethical harvesting. And we KNOW there are unscrupulous harvesters out there

i myself questioned this for a long time..if you check carefully you will find that the vulnerable species i have listed have already been made public (such as in Voogelbreinder 2009, or by other's net postings) ..i decided that a greater public awareness would ultimately benefit the plants..extracts from rare plants were being unquestionably distributed as simply 'dmt', most recipients unaware of the potential destruction behind the extracts..i have not listed any other vulnerable species because of sentiments similar to your own..in fact, i once urged Mulga not to put a certain tree on the net until more research into it and diversity had been done..my decision to create a public discussion forum was not reached without 'consultation' of the plants involved..

..but thank you cheif hobo stank, i am as concerned as you about the safety of these trees..
.
EDIT: i may have revealed the s.e. qld species, though this info. was circulated in the underground
..somehow, research needs to continue, and it doesn't feel good to push the scientific aspect underground..i encourgae cultivation as the first priority..
.

 

[nen888]

this was acacia growing guide..moved few posts ahead to maintain the flow...

 

[cheif hobo stank]

Okey sounds like you have your heart set on publicising these vulnerable trees. Personally I feel it is short-sighted saying 'well the information has already been put out there, so there is no harm in putting the information even FURTHER out there'. Trying to mend the stable door after a horse has bolted makes sense if there are still some left in the paddock, no?

Also I am aware that the person who discovered the activity of one of these species made a deliberate effort to not reveal the identity of the tree due to its rarity and slow growing nature. Yes it is all well and good to promote the taking of phyllodes rather than bark. But if you have seen this tree in the wild you would know the phyllodes are too high to access without serious climbing gear. "Oh snap I've just driven all this way from brizvagus and look how high those branches are! Can't go back empty handed, oh well a little bit of bark won't hurt aye"

As far as I can ascertain this thread is the only place it's identity and content has been made obvious. Google it's name followed by DMT see what you get.

I know the other species has been published in Voogelbreinder. But where do you think the majority of amateur wanna-be harvester is likely to be getting their hitlist from, a short-print-run 100 dollar ethnobotany reference? or a free public web forum?

Yes, extracts from rare plants have been distributed as simply DMT. And also, these rare extracts have also been marketed as "super-rare special kuta dmt" and people have marked-up the value of this product considerably. It's rarity makes it MORE SOUGHT AFTER in some "stamp collector" circles!

As for your "consultation" of the trees involved, that really is a typical justification for irresponsible or self-serving behavior in this scene. Be it financial or ego-fluffing. And really, if you have "consulted" these Vulnerable trees, then you have either directly or indirectly hastened their demise. Fact is, taking *any* biomass weakens the tree. Taking branches for phyllodes removes fresh growth which is where flowering and seed-set occurs, reducing reproductive potential and facilitating entry of pathogens.

I really do urge you to give some more consideration regarding this matter.

 

[nen888]

Okey sounds like you have your heart set on publicising these vulnerable trees.

no, i have my heart set on protecting them, the horse bolted on the most assulted years ago..the damage to previously mentioned trees happened before this thread existed,..i explained in my previous post i've witheld any other vulnerable one's that haven't been made public..

..cheif hobo stank, i've spent something like 15 years not giving out information..'consulting' trees is certainly subjective (see below) but my point is i am concerned with their well being..i can't edit chocobeastle's post, and unscrupulous people read books like Voogelbreinder, or google-search the Shaman Australis site..unscrupulous people are already using widely word-of-mouth info. about the other most vulnerable species for their own ends, but there are more common good choices out there, this is the point of this thread..

even if it seems to go about it the opposite way, to you..
..the main purpose of this thread was to protect species from legislation and individual overharvesting by creating diversity..i would like to research the metabolism of acacia plants..the past 10 years of rumor-based net info. has led to the destruction of trees..
i believe acurate information and strength in numbers are the best way to protect them..this i thought about a lot while campaigning for years in the underground for people to leave vulnerable plants alone..a guy is giving a talk on yet more acacias publically soon..can i tell him to keep quiet?

this thread exists for research and conservation..the underground has already put out these names to dodgy characters..

if you have "consulted" these Vulnerable trees, then you have either directly or indirectly hastened their demise. Fact is, taking *any* biomass weakens the tree. Taking branches for phyllodes removes fresh growth which is where flowering and seed-set occurs, reducing reproductive potential and facilitating entry of pathogens.

if you carefully read this thread you will find that, no, i have never taken more than a phyllode or two from a vulnerable or old tree (or at least infer this)..i have spent considerably longer than most meditating in the presence of these trees, and trying to regen after other people's damage..i maintain this is the best long-term course of action and suggest you may be short-sighted here..

why this thread is so easily googleable i can't explain, but the numbers are, really, not that large..several thousand people attend 'etnobotanic' conferences at which the previously mentioned vulnerable species have been mentioned..
..i cannot return to some kind of information 'dark-age' where rumours and drug-dealers rule..
we must learn to be symbiotic..if you have never taken from a plant you are a rare one..i scatter information seeds with the positive hope that the community will mature and grow..

THESE TREES CAN ALL BE CULTIVATED INTERNATIONALLY is another main point of mine..only in post-colonial australia and south america does wildharvest damage seem to be such an issue..

people who've met me in the past would say i'm a very millitant 'protect trees' activist..chief hobo stank, you are at another level..
there are many in aus and elsewhere that would probably be disappointed if certain info. had been with-held, as i originally requested..i have learned (by 'consulting' quite common trees) to take a more positive viewpoint these days..
.
.

 

[nen888]

..i'll take the democratic approach, so if other people feel i should withdraw a species name, or that a moderator should edit someone else's thread, then please respond soon...

EDIT: as you are so concered, chief hobo, i have removed one name from the list ..for now..

the main reason i feel safe in posting what i do is because i never have trafficable amounts of these things, and have never sold any kind of plant based product, nor any books for that matter..i don't have to be 'somebody who isn't me'
..i appreciate your 'stamp collector' comment, but i don't mix in circles this seedy or unconsciouss anymore if i can avoid it...
.