• Members of the previous forum can retrieve their temporary password here, (login and check your PM).

What psychedelic is most likely to cause bad trips?

Migrated topic.
benzyme said:
i'm definitely not a fan of the 'set and setting' theory, as it really has no relevance on people who have neurological issues to begin with
Click to expand...


That seems true. I have never had a bad experience, though I've only done entheogens maybe a dozen times in the past few months. They've all been at my home, not at some nature place in harmony and such.

But I can agree that not playing loud music and having a rowdy crowd around during your experience. That might cause some upsets. But then again, I do them alone, or at most with one other.
 
benzyme said:
i'm definitely not a fan of the 'set and setting' theory, as it really has no relevance on people who have neurological issues to begin with
Click to expand...

Set is the persons individual physiology, their memories, their expectations. Setting is the location. What do you mean by your statement. Their neurological state is their set. People do not seem to understand what set means. They only seem to think that people are saying the setting (environment). The role of set and setting is more than the environment, set has nothing to do with the environment it is the individual his physiology and experiences, expectations....
There is no question that this is an important factor in the effects of any drugs not only psychedelics. You are just wrong if you disagree. Of course different drugs may be more susceptible to this but everyone is different (different set) and thus can have diff responses to different drugs.
 
i am just wrong if I disagree? lol
"set and setting" is a psychology construct devised by Timothy Leary...there are a lot of his theories I don't agree with.

people with certain psychological disorders are in a perpetual bad trip as it is; if they take LSD, do you think their 'set' is relevant? the light is always on for them, it's obviously not very easy for them to turn it off.
 
In this case you are absolutely wrong, but I think it is because you are misunderstanding what is meant by set. Anyone who has done significant work with psychedelics is aware of set and setting. Not just Timothy Leary. Individual expectations, physiology, neurochemistry, life experiences, out looks on life these are all part of ones set and have a huge influence on their experience. You act as though it only means the setting. This also certainly plays a role but even more so is the set, which constitute the things outlined above and more. Individual compounds have different effects on different people. Would you not agree? How would you explian this? Their set. This is relevant with other drugs as well. Why do some people like opiates and others dislike them?
This is not a theory but a well known fact.

Regarding psychotic individuals their neural chemistry is altered. Thus their set is significantly different then mine. Not all psychotic people have bad trips. If you think this you need to seriously review the literature. However their set is different than mine and thus some are more likely to have a bad trip then others are, as they are already paranoid or psychotic. This is their set and is different form the setting which is the environment which also plays an important role.
You obviously see the importance of set for you to even mention the effects on psychotic people. The very fact that they are psychotic is their set. SET is not SETTING.
 
Try taking 1000 micrograms of LSD after getting fired from work or on the same day someone very important in your life dies. Then you'll truly know the meaning of "set and setting".

SWIM has used LSD many hundreds of times. He’s only had “bad trips” a few times. But when they happened they were COMPLETE HELL. In all cases "Set and setting" were responsible for the bad trips.


Imagine looking around yourself and your surroundings look depressing. The flowers look like they are dying. You feel the deepest depression you ever felt in your life amplified 1000 times by the LSD. Every thought in your mind is negative and leads to hundreds of other negative thoughts all filling your mind, all about death and despair. Even the music on the radio sounds depressing. Even loved ones look depressing and you can’t even stand to be around them. You look at yourself in the mirror, you look like an ugly bum. No matter what, you can’t shake it. Your mind is racing and completely flooded with these horrible thoughts looping over and over. It’s like your brain is malfunctioning, stuck in a loop that is both emotional and psychological.

That’s an LSD style bad trip.

SWIM has had them. But SWIM used LSD hundreds of times. The bad trips constituted about 1% of all of SWIM’s LSD usage.

LSD is actually one of SWIM's favorite psychedelics.
 
bufoman said:
In this case you are absolutely wrong, but I think it is because you are misunderstanding what is meant by set. Anyone who has done significant work with psychedelics is aware of set and setting. Not just Timothy Leary. Individual expectations, physiology, neurochemistry, life experiences, out looks on life these are all part of ones set and have a huge influence on their experience. You act as though it only means the setting. This also certainly plays a role but even more so is the set, which constitute the things outlined above and more. Individual compounds have different effects on different people. Would you not agree? How would you explian this? Their set. This is relevant with other drugs as well. Why do some people like opiates and others dislike them?
This is not a theory but a well known fact.
Click to expand...

tim leary came up with the 'set and setting' (that's what he dubbed it) theory, because it's NOT fact..not much of psychology is solid fact anyway, like psychiatry, there are a lot of overlapping theories/constructs.

some people like opiates, while others don't?...doesn't necessarily have to do with set; in many people, CYP2D6 expression is genetically predisposed, and that has nothing to do with set. some just don't like the somatic side effects, and histamine signalling. again..nothing to do with set.
 
Personally, I feel dosage would play a major role as well.

I've never met anyone who has had a bad experience with low dosages of mushrooms. But the people who I do know who've had bad trips with mushrooms were at much higher dosages of 3.5+

Oh and yeah, I'm surprised the tropane alkaloids aren't in the poll either. Hands down winners.
 
benzyme said:
bufoman said:
In this case you are absolutely wrong, but I think it is because you are misunderstanding what is meant by set. Anyone who has done significant work with psychedelics is aware of set and setting. Not just Timothy Leary. Individual expectations, physiology, neurochemistry, life experiences, out looks on life these are all part of ones set and have a huge influence on their experience. You act as though it only means the setting. This also certainly plays a role but even more so is the set, which constitute the things outlined above and more. Individual compounds have different effects on different people. Would you not agree? How would you explian this? Their set. This is relevant with other drugs as well. Why do some people like opiates and others dislike them?
This is not a theory but a well known fact.
Click to expand...

tim leary came up with the 'set and setting' (that's what he dubbed it) theory, because it's NOT fact..not much of psychology is solid fact anyway, like psychiatry, there are a lot of overlapping theories/constructs.

some people like opiates, while others don't?...doesn't necessarily have to do with set; in many people, CYP2D6 expression is genetically predisposed, and that has nothing to do with set. some just don't like the somatic side effects, and histamine signalling. again..nothing to do with set.
Click to expand...

That is set. What do you think set means?
Set is the physiology as well as the psychology. It is a pharmacological/biological theory as much as psychological Most people confuse it with setting, but either way setting also plays a tremendous role. Even rats are more likely to overdose in novel settings. Also they exert variable behavioral responses in different settings.
All of these enzymatic and molecular phenotypes have to do with set. You are misunderstanding what it means. I have said clearly what set is severeal times. While leary may have coined the term it was a well known phenomenon before Leary. The role of both set and setting in the effects of a compound is not a theory. Are you just looking at wikipedia?

Also regarding the psychological aspect of set, is the culture context one was brought up in greatly restricts how they are capable of perceiving the world. Even the linguistic archetypes a culture uses to describe/categorize the world can influence how one sees the world. This will undoubtably influence how any situation is interpreted and handled especially strongly emotional psychedelic ones. Also of course the environment one is in will influence the experience, if you are in a safe, friendly environment you will have a far different experience than a stressful hate filled one. This is common sense everyone knows this. You really don't believe this?

If you don't believe in set and setting then why do some people have bad trips and others don't. Why do some people have them sometimes and not others (with the same compound)? Please explain these phenomenon.
 
This is what leary had in mind. Don't go to wikipedia. Actually go and read what he and others said regarding set and setting. They were well aware of the role of physiology. Set is the psychology and physiology of the individual. Most people do not understand this, but it is the SET.

Also If you don't believe in set and setting then why do some people have bad trips and others don't. Why do some people have them sometimes and not others (with the same compound)? Please explain these phenomenon

I am using it as a catch all.? Look just because you only read Wikipedia does not mean I make things up. i have read the literature you obviously have not as you do not even know what set means. I tried to tell you several times.
 
not looking on wikipedia, I'm going off of what I've read on "Hallucinogens: A Reader", and "The Psychedelic Encyclopedia".

tim leary wasn't taking about opiates, pharms, or any other psychoactives when he came up with his "set and setting" clause, he was referring to psychedelics in particular. his focus of research was the mind, so he was obviously referring to mindset.
after reading exopsychology, I take his theories with a grain of salt; the guy was as out there as terrence.

set and setting are also sort of irrelevant with dissociatives. separate mind from body, and what are you left with? a void
 
I agree regarding Leary although he was smart in somethings. I have read many others work however. Check out Robert Masters and Jean Houston The varieties of Psychedelic experiences. I am trying to find a good article I have that explains set. I will post the info when I find it.
I know he meant hallucinogens, which set and setting is very relevant to, but it is also relevant to other drugs. The individuals mind set is important but set is also a result of the physiology which determines their mind state. Even if we do not consider the underlying physiology, the mind set of the individual is very important. Would you not agree? This absolutely influences the experience. Many other people besides Leary have supported the role of set and setting. In fact I have never heard of anyone not believing it. It is heavily supported in the literature.

Please answer this then: If you don't believe in set and setting then why do some people have bad trips and others don't. Why do some people have them sometimes and not others (with the same compound)? Please explain these phenomenon
 
Here is a website showing what set entails. I will post other more Psychedelic relevant sources later. You misunderstood what is meant by set as do most people but even as you misunderstood it, it still plays a prominent role. Today it is a well known phenomenon relevant to more than just psychedelics.


not to sound like a dick but I do not argue with things I am wrong about. If I do not know for sure I look it up. it is very easy to think you know something with certainty. But if you ask your self why you believe it, there is usually not a good reason but rather something you heard or assumed.
 
bufoman said:
I agree regarding Leary although he was smart in somethings. I have read many others work however. Check out Robert Masters and Jean Houston The varieties of Psychedelic experiences. I am trying to find a good article I have that explains set. I will post the info when I find it.
I know he meant hallucinogens, which set and setting is very relevant to, but it is also relevant to other drugs. The individuals mind set is important but set is also a result of the physiology which determines their mind state. Even if we do not consider the underlying physiology, the mind set of the individual is very important. Would you not agree? This absolutely influences the experience. Many other people besides Leary have supported the role of set and setting. In fact I have never heard of anyone not believing it. It is heavily supported in the literature.

Please answer this then: If you don't believe in set and setting then why do some people have bad trips and others don't. Why do some people have them sometimes and not others (with the same compound)? Please explain these phenomenon
Click to expand...

metabolism and signalling.

it's really a matter of semantics, but it can't be fact...how do you show evidence for "set and setting"to the point where it's accepted fact? not everyone reacts the same for these substances.

now I see what you're saying about the physiology part of it, but with this you're implying causality.... physiological changes cause a mindset to manifest. some rare few are impervious to certain drugs, so they're not really subject to set and setting.

dissociation is a favorite mind state/set, whatever you want to call it. i suppose set and setting can be applied to it, but it's a good model for psychosis...because the separation of mind from body begins to fuzz certain definitions
 
No this is not my interpretation this is what was meant by SET, wether you think so or not, you didn't invent it and you have misunderstood it. Set is more than the mind set. This is what Leary, Alpert and Metzner meant when they proposed it and it is what others scientists mean today when they say it. It is not a theory it is a well known accepted fact.

The very fact that not everyone acts the same to these substances proves the role of set, and the role of setting can and has been studied. I strongly suggest you look into it before we continue this conversation as you have obviously misunderstood and I do not appreciate you telling me I did when I most certainly did not as I read things thourogly.

If it were just physiology then an individual should always have a bad trip to the same compound but they do not, one day they may have a great trip another a bad one. There are other factors beside the metabolic SET of the individual the mind set, the cultural context, the setting also all play an important role. This is a proven well known fact. Please read the literature more thourogly.

Look into the results of the MK-ULTRA studies if you do not believe in the role of setting. Leary may have coined the term but others knew about this phenomenon before Leary.
 
That physiology plays a role in the effects of drugs is a theory? Come on man, it is okay to have made a mistake and misunderstood something everyone does it. For some reason very few people can ever admit they were at fault.

I am well aware of what science is thank you. and we can talk philosophy of reality, theory, proven... all night with out getting anywhere. Also theory in science does not mean it is not proven. This word is used liberally to express an idea or a set of ideas that may or may not be proven. My point is that SET is both physiology and psychology. This is correct.
 
Good. Most people assume that set only means the mind set, when in actuality it means physiology as well. Although I still think mind set and setting also play a role, although of course it also depends on the specific compound and the other factors of SET. It is amazing how many misunderstandings occur because of miscommunication.
 
Back
Top Bottom