TBM / Bridgesii Monstrose Type B - Some fun with numbers

[brewster]

Hi guys,

so, the question of Bridgesii monstrose potency keeps coming up. There's a great number of people stating that they're more potent, and some who don't agree.

Credit goes to ManicMongrel for posting this study: Boliviaanse Torch 'Monstrose' (Penis Plant - Cultivation - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

On the other hand, there's many claims. One of them was quite strong:

One medium (i.e. golf ball sized) pup is enough to get a good buzz, way above threshold, and it's a good place to start. Two of them is a genuine medium trip; three of them is a strong but coherent trip; and four or five of them is a mind-bending trip.

(Not sure if I'm already breaking a rule quoting this. I looked in the attitude section and there wasn't a mention that other forums are generally forbidden from mentioning. If so - please notify me, and then I'm sorry.)

So, I broke out my highschools maths:

1 golf ball: diamater 42mm --> volume 38cm³

1 cutting of bridgesii 1foot long, 1.2 (3cm) inch wide: approx. 560cm³.

"1 foot of bridge" seems the classic recommendation for a moderate dose. Obviously, this is an approximation due to huge variety in potency and by no means reliable.

1 inch is probably slimmer than many cuttings will be. Still - this makes 14 "golf balls" to get the same volume as one cutting. Type B would have to be around 7 times stronger than regular bridge - actually, even more, because most cuttings are thicker than 3cm. This would make it on par with Peyote, or stronger. Wouldn't that be nice to have to eat so little cactus for a nice journey...

I assume that rarely anyone will say that Type B is that pungent - it would be the amazing secret weapon if that were the case. Maybe this person is just very sensitive? I'd love to hear some type B reports there.

I'll make one myself - got such a cactus on it's way. I couldn't resist... :roll:. But it'll be a few months, since I don't have soo much time for these activities, and before the bridge, I'll want to do the second phase of the Cuzco Project.

Thanks for reading, I'd love to hear some of your experiences with TBM Type B.

 

[Grey Fox]

I have the short-segment TBM (type a & b terminology is reversed in some sources and therefore can be confusing). I havent had it that long and havent ever brewed it.

My understanding regarding the potency is that this clone grows slower than your typical Trichocereus. So a cutting of the short segment TBM that weighs X grams will be considerably older than a cutting of another Tricho that weighs X grams. Since older plants tend to be more potent than younger plants, unsurprisingly the TBM cutting is consistently more potent. Another way of thinking about it: 12 inches of short TBM could represent 6 years of growth, while 12 inches of another cutting could represent 1 year of growth. Its just a much older piece of plant, and therefore stronger.

 

[brewster]

I see. Yes, short-segmented is what I mean
They definitely seem to be growing more slowly. I mean, I'm not sure whether this has to mean that they produce more alkaloids per cm³, even though it is certainly plausible. Question is: are they as much more potent as they are more slow-growing?

I mean, if so, this would be a great deal - much less plant matter do deal with, probably much less nausea as well. Much less stuff to cut up, boil down / extract.

 

[Grey Fox]

Short form and long form is how some people refer to the 2 clones. I like that terminology as it is less confusing.

If you try your TBM please let us know how it goes. :thumb_up:

 

[brewster]

Will do! I'd love to take TBM with the Cuzco, but then I'll never know what did what :roll:

 

[0_o]

TPM clone B, the short form is decent.
It is actually rather fast growing and new growth of well fed plants is plenty potent.

 

[0_o]

I do have to admit though that I've never seen any real evidence that it is a bridgesii.
It had spine traits that aren't consistent with bridgesii.
I don't have a before picture, but these things grow very very fast under good conditions.

 

[brewster]

Yes, Grey Fox, I'll certainly report back

: Looks nice! Yeah, "the chunky type". I never saw anyone skeptical about them being Bridges, though. So I at least believe it - even more if they're potent. Even though they have these crazy long spines, which seem quite uncommon. Also, the jagged look is just great. Little sculptures, every one of them.

The one i got has 6 segments altogether. So I plan on taking 4, even though I lust for 5 :twisted:. It probably would be best not to water the plant now - it is very, very dehydrated, but that's what we want, right?

 

[Grey Fox]

I'm always conservative in terms of how much material to harvest from a plant. Even though 0_o has had good success at popping out some pups, these plants really are known for taking their time to grow. Its up to you of course how many segments to take from it.

The biggest one of these that I ever saw in person was a little over a foot tall and a little over a foot and a half wide, a mass of many segments. The seller wanted A LOT for it because it was such an old specimen. But thankfully he was willing to cut a small piece off for me for a reasonable price. I doubt that I will ever cut mine. I plan to just let it grow as an ornamental specimen.

 

[brewster]

Yeah, I mean no one knows, of course. In terms of what is recommended for regular Bridgesii, 4 segments are nothing at all. It's a third of a foot, should be a threshold dose, if at all.

So I wondered about concrete experiences. If I get this correctly, they're all clones from the same plant, so there should be a bit more of a consensus than with other cacti.

I certainly don't want to eat the whole cactus, that'd be too crass :roll:

 

[0_o]

Many growers have reported these plants grow very fast when well fed.
People who report slow growth may not be feeding them very much.

If you do a side by side comparison of clone B with a number of bridgesii the difference in regards to spine growth is apparent. Many bridgesii do grow long spines however the spines of clone B are unique.

The usual dose for the form is considered to start at 1 piece. When dried the outer tissue is reported quite active at 20g. 2 pieces has been too much for some people, so starting with less is suggested.

 

[brewster]

Thanks for the additional info . I'm intrigued - this is really very little tissue compared to the 1ft / 2" dose. I'll try less then, and will report back.

The reports about slow growth might be especially relevant for Clone A (the long type). I found several descriptions which state that they can grow up to 6 segments per season. Since the segments are up to three inches long, that's not so little.

The penis cactus though, seems to grow really slow. Oh, that rhymes

PS: Some nice pictures of larger clusters here:

Trichocereus bridgesii monstrose clone A (AKA Penis Plant) 1-gal

The Penis Plant, Trichocereus bridgesii monstrose, is a clustering cactus which grows to 2 feet, and has cucumber-shaped stems with long spines at the base.

shop.cacti.com

 

[downwardsfromzero]

It has been >claimed to have been< found that bridgesii contains a flavonoid which is thought >suggested< to be behind its perceived high potency by slowing down the breakdown of mescaline in the body. This is probably >a possible reason< why the mescaline content figures seem reasonably normal even though the perceived intensity is >claimed to be< considerably higher. And I'm all for getting more mileage out of a given amount of mescaline, by various means and methods.

My BM's each sprout about six new segments per year, as a confirmation that figure is realistic. And they are fed regularly.

Such cool plants, an essential part of any cactus collection :thumb_up:


<Edited for better tone of factual veracity (or lack thereof)>

 

[0_o]

It has been found that bridgesii contains a flavonoid which is thought to be behind its perceived high potency by slowing down the breakdown of mescaline in the body.

This is actually very controversial, to date nobody has shown any potentiation of mescaline by flavonoids. In most cases bridgesii have been shown to have substantial amounts of mescaline.


The names for the TBM selections are kind of confused. Both forms, long and short...can be found being represented and sold as Clone A, Clone B and penis plant. Its true that the longer form tends to grow slower than the short clumper, however anecdotal reports suggest that the short clumping form of smaller segments is often the stronger of the two, though both are considered strong.

SAB used to have analysis data on the clone B, before things changed. That was well over 10 years ago though.

In my experience well fed fast growing plants are much stronger than those grown "hard"
However it is well worth experiencing for yourself, feed some, starve others and compare!

 

[downwardsfromzero]

It has been found that bridgesii contains a flavonoid which is thought to be behind its perceived high potency by slowing down the breakdown of mescaline in the body.

This is actually very controversial, to date nobody has shown any potentiation of mescaline by flavonoids. In most cases bridgesii have been shown to have substantial amounts of mescaline.

Actually, I'm with you on that. There was no clear reference establishing that as fact. Post edited.

However it is well worth experiencing for yourself, feed some, starve others and compare!

Undoubtedly the best method. With my normal bridgesii, summer feeds followed by an autumn rain soak, drying, cramped roots the whole while, several months of low light levels and finally being knocked out by frost (and maybe a touch of sunburn) led to decidedly impressive potency. Lack of a control diminishes the scientific worth of this observation, as does chucking it all in a pan along with some peruvianus. But for spiritual fulfilment, it's still a clear... mescalwin

 

[Grey Fox]

PS: Some nice pictures of larger clusters here:

Trichocereus bridgesii monstrose clone A (AKA Penis Plant) 1-gal

The Penis Plant, Trichocereus bridgesii monstrose, is a clustering cactus which grows to 2 feet, and has cucumber-shaped stems with long spines at the base.

shop.cacti.com

Yes there is an example of a vendor who has mislabeled this plant as "clone A". Do you notice in the description of the plant they write, "slowly growing up to 2 feet tall".

As I said earlier I have only had this plant for a short time so I am not very familiar with it. But from everything I have heard from other growers it is a slow growing plant and many suspect that its potency is linked to the slow growth.

But maybe that is not accurate. 0_o and downwardsfromzero do you have photos of a larger plant? And would you mind saying how old the plant is? I think it would be helpful to see how big this clone can get in a certain amount of time. Thanks!

 

[brewster]

It really seems that Clone A and Clone B are often confused. The notions are all over the place.
If you ask me: Only clone A (the long type of TBM) should be called penis plant. The short ones simply don't look phallic at all.
Clone A: Long version. Da real Penis Plant.
Clone B: Short version.

TBM - Trichocereus bridgesii Clone A + Clone B Penis Cactus

TBM is short for Trichocereus bridgesii monstrosa. These two clones are also called "Penis Plant or Frauenglück.

trichocereus.net

Still - short form, long form is maybe the easiest terminology to use, since it is self-obvious.


Anyways - about the MAOI. This is what I found:

1.

Not sure about hordenine, but erowid reports:
"T. bridgesii -
Fast growing, slender, columnar.
Contains: mescaline, tyramine, 3-methoxytyramine, 3-4-dimethoxyphenethylamine."
3-4-dimethoxyphenethylamine has been shown to have MAOI properties.

Source: Trichocereus Bridgesii Monstrose - Generic - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus

So do I get this right? It at least has a low level of MAOI, BUT it isn't clear if this boosts the effect of the mescaline in the first place. Interesting... and confusing.


And then:

2.

I started researching what else could be contained in Trichocereus bridgesii that explains the reported increase in potency, outside of the well-known alkaloids. I came across numerous reports that Trichocereus bridgesii contained the flavonoids quercetin and kaempferol, which act as a monoamine oxidase inhibitor or MAOI for short. Further research confirmed that both quercetin and kaempferol do in fact act as short term reversible Monoamine oxidase inhibitors

perhaps flavonoids could be employed to boost the effectiveness of psychoactive cacti other than Trichocereus bridgesii and psychoactive brews in general. Bioassay has shown this to be the case, with green tea, Gingko biloba and onion leaves being utilized to great success.

Source: Flavonoids: The over looked ingredients - Dragibus Magazine

So, Brett assumes that MAOIs will definitely boost cacti. What I don't get from this is an explanation how this is supposed to work. [EDIT: Yes, he does. Please see post #23.] Brett Lothian is a great guy, and he knows much more about the subject than me. Still, we all know how tricky bioassay can be with the placebo effect and all.

Quercetin also seems to work better when it is used in conjunction with Bromelain, a digestive enzyme found in pineapple. This also likely plays a role in many of the mostly plant based
‘Dieta’ undertaken, sometimes for a week or more before psychoactive brews are taken ceremonially in traditional cultures. It stands to reason that loading the body beforehand with high amounts of flavonoid containing plants would only help the MAOI process, effectively boosting the potency of the psychoactive brew once it was administered.

That means, if Brett is right, then it might be a good idea to have lots of fruits, green tea and especially pinapple before consuming something psychoactive. I assume many people here will be rather skeptical. I bet that won't believe a thing . I myself have no Idea whom to believe, there simply isn't enough research on the matter. I'll have my pinapples ready though - can't hurt

But certainly, people have tried out MAOIs + mescaline. If that were to be effective, this would be known by now, right? I mean, If I read correctly, MAOIs can be used to boost tryptamines.

 

[Grey Fox]

Also, the big one seems larger than 2 ft to me.

That big glaucous one is probably approaching 3 feet. That is a very old plant.

The thing is bridgesii is fast growing under the right conditions. Trichos in general are recognized as fast growing cacti. You can take a standard bridgesii and grow it big in a few years under the right conditions. The short form bridgesii will never match that kind of increase of mass. I have a bridgesii that was planted as a 5 inch cutting in January 2015. Now it is a good sized plant with multiple branches, the tallest of which is over 5 feet tall. Its a real plant. I can take a photo of it. Its not just words on the internet.

The short form clone cannot produce that kind of growth. Its so innaccurate to say that it grows "very very fast". And thats why it has always been recognized as a slower growing clone. It takes a lot longer to produce the same amount of mass compared to a standard bridgesii. But if it is in fact much more potent then it may make up for the slower growth. Either way its a cool looking plant and a good addition to anyone's collection.

 

[brewster]

Yes, picture please. I can't get enough photos of naked bridgesii .

Yeah, I mean, a well-established tricho will grow a foot per year or even more. But in terms of goodies, a foot of standard bridge can be a rather moderate dose. According to Caz (the guy from reddit whom I quoted earlier) and , three segments of the monster can give a serious effect. That's much less mass than a foot of standard bridge, but seems to be comparable in power. In that regard, a short form (clone B) might be as productive as a standard bridgesii.

Or did I miss something?

 

[0_o]

The flavonoid thing is one that could use more attention and testing.
It needs evidence.

I addressed it in further detail here Cacti & Harmalas, any final word on safety? - Preparation - Welcome to the DMT-Nexus in post 51 of this thread,

There is a lot I didn't say.
One of those is that flavonoids aren't known to be particularly strong at MAO-i and that a lot of the claims about MAO inhibition are speculation.