Why DMT Scares Me

[northape]

What I've been saying is the ego is the aspect of self that cares there is a self.

Yeah, everything is woven together in the mind - pure awareness and the individual sense of self that takes God's light to manifest.
The feeling I am this body is the ego, in my opinion. You can even simplify it to I am because it attaches itself to the body right away and never stands by itself.
We know nothing beyond the ego because it is our reference point. And even if we saw the Mind at Large, we would have no idea or many doubts about it. That is the issue.
The ego can never escape itself and is totally fine with any number of modifications as long as they are within its limits. Any liberation is achieved by the grace of a higher existence (God, Mind at Large, or pure awareness).

 

[Voidmatrix]

It's interesting, I've never identified with my body in that way. It's my body, but my body is not me. It is a symbol of me in the corporeal concesus, physical aspect of "reality." I'm whatever "I" is (I won't say it's an illusion or that it's eternal or entertain any other stance because we don't know and for me to pick a side limits the understanding of the totality of the situation I might be able to have), without my mind as well, as that is also a symbol or reflection of what "I" "actually" am.

Otherwise there's not much I can say. I feel where you're coming from, but for me to align with the same would require me to lie to myself. I don't take a stance on a lot of things, and thus things stay open-ended.

One love

 

[northape]

It's interesting, I've never identified with my body in that way. It's my body, but my body is not me. It is a symbol of me in the corporeal concesus, physical aspect of "reality." I'm whatever "I" is (I won't say it's an illusion or that it's eternal or entertain any other stance because we don't know and for me to pick a side limits the understanding of the totality of the situation I might be able to have), without my mind as well, as that is also a symbol or reflection of what "I" "actually" am.

Otherwise there's not much I can say. I feel where you're coming from, but for me to align with the same would require me to lie to myself. I don't take a stance on a lot of things, and thus things stay open-ended.

One love

It doesn't really matter what we believe as long as we pay attention to the "I" feeling and investigate what it represents. In Buddhist terms, it would be akin to formless meditation, because when we strip the "I" from all ideas about it, nothing remains. That's why the common metaphor is space.

 

[blig-blug]

the ego is the aspect of self that cares

I would leave it like this

 

[Voidmatrix]

Idk if I'd say nothing remains... just that we can't pin it down. Otherwise it's a little too solipsistic to me.

It makes me think of the oversimplification of a Buddhist idea, that because we haven't found the self that there must not be one. That's bad logic. Take for example, you drive home from the store. Later in the day, you need to leave again, but are unable to find your keys. You look "everywhere" and are unable to find them. Since you've looked and can't find them, does it follow they MUST not be in the house? No, of course not. Why is there "self" any different.

Which leads me to what I've said for a while: the self likely isn't what we think it is. That also entails ideas of it simply being an illusion, or a trick of the ego. I think it's much deeper than that potentially.

But at the end of the day, I land at: we don't know. Despite our plethora of systems and paradigms, we don't know. One might be able to say that we are merely swapping delusions, trading out one phenomenology for another, and that includes systems that say there is no self, or that all is one, as it includes the opposite and contradictions. We don't know.

One love

 

[northape]

I would leave it like this

The only problem with all these definitions is that they never leave the ego's realm. We're still inside the box, dreaming about the outside world.
No matter how much we tinker with or modify reality inside the box (the ego), we never leave it that way. That's why beliefs are useless.

 

[Icon]

I haven't read much of the thread, not sure what I'm jumping into exactly but I wanted to comment on ego and an experience with DMT that makes me fearful. I had a trip that was odd, not typical psychedelic but more physical-mental paralysis and confusion. After coming down I felt depersonalized. It's happened to me acutely a couple times when I started vaping weed too, but this was a more persistent fog. Like I don't feel connection to my experiences, body, mind anymore. My life is still there, but in a closet. I'm not wearing my experience anymore, for better and worse.

Before DMT I would describe myself as having less affinities than most people. I'd always struggle to answer "what is your favorite ____ ?" I try to keep an open mind about most things, and check my judgements. That hasn't changed after DMT, but I wonder if my personality is more susceptible to depersonalization effects. To this day I feel like there is lag between my thoughts and speech, behavior, etc. Like how most people can immediately summon an answer to their favorite things, and express themselves without thinking about it. For me, every sentence gets previewed and predicted before escaping my mouth. It's mostly a subconscious thing, but it's compulsive. Like my mind can't decide how to express a thought, and overthinks the options. Anyway, I think ego is a good thing for daily functioning. I wish I had a stronger personality, or stronger expression of it. It's almost like stuttering, there's too much self consciousness and I struggle to just let myself exist.

 

[Voidmatrix]

That's why beliefs are useless.

I certainly hope that I haven't been giving the idea that I hold beliefs. Sometimes it can seem that way as a result of language.

But my not having beliefs contributes to this as well . I mean, I think you may have stated more of your beliefs in the past several posts more than I have.

When it comes to getting in the space they can be useful, even if not truthful.

One love

 

[Voidmatrix]

I haven't read much of the thread, not sure what I'm jumping into exactly but I wanted to comment on ego and an experience with DMT that makes me fearful. I had a trip that was odd, not typical psychedelic but more physical-mental paralysis and confusion. After coming down I felt depersonalized. It's happened to me acutely a couple times when I started vaping weed too, but this was a more persistent fog. Like I don't feel connection to my experiences, body, mind anymore. My life is still there, but in a closet. I'm not wearing my experience anymore, for better and worse.

Before DMT I would describe myself as having less affinities than most people. I'd always struggle to answer "what is your favorite ____ ?" I try to keep an open mind about most things, and check my judgements. That hasn't changed after DMT, but I wonder if my personality is more susceptible to depersonalization effects. To this day I feel like there is lag between my thoughts and speech, behavior, etc. Like how most people can immediately summon an answer to their favorite things, and express themselves without thinking about it. For me, every sentence gets previewed and predicted before escaping my mouth. It's mostly a subconscious thing, but it's compulsive. Like my mind can't decide how to express a thought, and overthinks the options. Anyway, I think ego is a good thing for daily functioning. I wish I had a stronger personality, or stronger expression of it. It's almost like stuttering, there's too much self consciousness and I struggle to just let myself exist.

Thank you for sharing this @Icon . You're perfectly highlighting how the shit gets weirder.

I too don't have a whole lot of affinities. Is this a result of suspension of judgment, or does this reflect something about ourselves.

I feel like I was quick on the jump in conversation, lost it, and am gaining it back, thankfully. While I think the mind-expanding property of DMT and my high frequency of use can lend itself to such a state (like a paradox of choice scenario), I think it's also environmental and stress related as well as related to trauma. For example, I tend to assume people don't want to hear what I have to say. This isn't true now, but seemed true as a kid.

One love

 

[northape]

Idk if I'd say nothing remains... just that we can't pin it down. Otherwise it's a little too solipsistic to me.

It makes me think of the oversimplification of a Buddhist idea, that because we haven't found the self that there must not be one. That's bad logic.

Oh, sorry. There is no problem here. I just never unpacked what "nothing" or emptiness means. It's a whole topic in Buddhism, and there are lots of books written about it. This "nothing" is like an empty space with the ability to manifest anything at all. Searching for "I" and not finding anything is the answer, and it leads directly to Reality.

But my not having beliefs contributes to this as well . I mean, I think you may have stated more of your beliefs in the past several posts more than I have.

It just shows how much weight I give to my beliefs

 

[blig-blug]

That's why beliefs are useless.

I wouldn't say useless. They're not ultimate and they're not an end destination, but properly understood they can be helpful along the way: it's like the canoe simile: once you cross the river you abandon the canoe, but that doesn't make the canoe useless. Quite the opposite. The problem is to use a faulty canoe, or to keep hugging it instead of using it to cross the river, or to refuse to abandon it once the other shore has been reached.

Like how most people can immediately summon an answer to their favorite things, and express themselves without thinking about it

I feel similarly, but I see it as related to the way one was socialized as a child (at least in my case). For whatever reason, most people are trained to produce an answer to that kind of question, and expected to. The questions in itself don't make much sense to me, the "favorite" will depend on the circumstances and what I want. And while I appreciate some colors more than others, I don't see how I could rank them, or why I would. But if I had felt pressured to conform to expectations I'm sure I would have ended up choosing one. I don't think it's a problem to not have a "favorite X", and I actually think it's a sign of better awareness and less conformity. Maybe I'm just tooting my own horn and it's some mental defect to not be able to answer most of those questions, who knows. I don't think so, in this case.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Whatchu 'poligizin' for? You're good. I think it's the way I come off sometimes.

Oh, sorry. There is no problem here. I just never unpacked what "nothing" or emptiness means. It's a whole topic in Buddhism, and there are lots of books written about it. This "nothing" is like an empty space with the ability to manifest anything at all. Searching for "I" and not finding anything is the answer, and it leads directly to Reality.

However, this is why I can't help but see so many things, in primacy, at the fundamental, as paradox.

It just shows how much weight I give to my beliefs

I'm dead

One love

 

[northape]

Before DMT I would describe myself as having less affinities than most people. I'd always struggle to answer "what is your favorite ____ ?" I try to keep an open mind about most things, and check my judgements. That hasn't changed after DMT, but I wonder if my personality is more susceptible to depersonalization effects. To this day I feel like there is lag between my thoughts and speech, behavior, etc. Like how most people can immediately summon an answer to their favorite things, and express themselves without thinking about it. For me, every sentence gets previewed and predicted before escaping my mouth.

You just touched on what is called vairagya in spirituality. I'd make nothing much out of it. It's a normal development in the psyche. Most people never go deep into themselves, so they can just read about it as a concept. You have a first-hand experience. Use it for good and further advancement.

I wouldn't say useless. They're not ultimate and they're not an end destination, but properly understood they can be helpful along the way: it's like the canoe simile: once you cross the river you abandon the canoe, but that doesn't make the canoe useless. Quite the opposite. The problem is to use a faulty canoe, or to keep hugging it instead of using it to cross the river, or to refuse to abandon it once the other shore has been reached.

Nicely put. I'm an extremist in my thinking and like to make grand statements. Your reasoning is closer to how I really feel.

 

[northape]

However, this is why I can't help but see so many things, in primacy, at the fundamental, as paradox.

Sure, it's a paradox. We're going outside the ego and its logical constraints. Nothing could be said about Reality. It's all metaphors at our level.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Sure, it's a paradox. We're going outside the ego and its logical constraints. Nothing could be said about Reality. It's all metaphors at our level.

Exactly! Sort of...

Whatever we can't speak of we must pass over in silence- Wittegnstein

One love

 

[northape]

Whatever we can't speak of we must pass over in silence- Wittegnstein

I agree 100%. Silence is the path and the highest goal at the same time.

 

[Panpsychic]

I kinda opened a can of worms. There's a reason that I usually keep certain tidbits to myself.

Not really. I mean you literally made a thread about how DMT frightens you so this would seem pretty important.

I hear you both, I really do. However, we haven't had the same experiences, and we also don't operate from the same predicate metaphysical assumptions about the space.

I suppose its partly because you framed it as being something "about the space" which of course means something about your experience of the space, "to be wary of".
Theres the distinction between individual and universal mind so to what extent can it be just a reflection of something in your psyche? Thats something we are trying to separate to give objective views about 'the space'.

I can't really lean on anything when it comes to the space. It's at the crossroads of the summit of mystery. We can't explain consciousness and that makes ontologically categorizing anything in the space difficult. That's the reality. Not the content. In honoring myself and my consciousness, staying true to myself and maintaining a stance of honesty, I don't know how much of what I'm dealing with is "me" and how much is not.

Yes, but we cant help but apply many assumptions due to our conditioning. I respect however the attempt to maintain a neutral non judgmental and non assuming stance as much as possible, and think is the right approach even if ultimately impossible to do.

I can't lean on the idea of inherent good because it kinda seems like the space transcends that, which is fraught.

I suppose this is another broad one. I do think it transcends good and evil, but ultimately it wants us to perfect ourselves is my very strong sense.
However, the caveat is that this process may involve you suffering and even may not be perceived as 'good' for your individual identify in this bodily form, but for the larger picture it is.

I feel that space is ultimately good, but it comes with a small caveat: the ability to annihilate you. People read about God, spirituality, and psychology and think there is something to gain. The same applies to psychedelic experiences; we want to bring something back or have a good time. However, the truth lies in letting go of ourselves. All of these practices or experiences lead toward our own death. People who dive deep without any fear or anxiety are just too sure of themselves and their reality. They like to use spirituality as decorations for their old selves. Those who are aware of the potential for annihilation are much more wary. Even if it's a temporary erasure, we still remember and try to avoid it.

Yes

Consistent deep dives just mean that the ego has gotten accustomed to this DMT death-rebirth cycle. As a consequence, you have a stronger ego now. Look into the 5-MeO community, and you will see how much narcissism is there.

We're trying to cover bases of the mystery of mysteries. Perhaps all of us correct, accessing different partitions of hyperspace.

Its actually 5-MeO thats the Mystery of mysteries dont you know. When we overcome this fear stuff we may graduate to that one day.

 

[northape]

Its actually 5-MeO thats the Mystery of mysteries dont you know. When we overcome this fear stuff we may graduate to that one day.

5-MeO-DMT, as an ultimate ego destroyer, just shows that psychedelics are tools and not the exit.
People who misuse 5-MeO-DMT are the most arrogant bunch I have ever seen walk on this Earth.

 

[ommani]

I'm smelling what you're stepping in.

I just think language can be a driver of reification, particularly in the absence of person-first phrasing - including with regard to ourselves.

 

[Voidmatrix]

Not really. I mean you literally made a thread about how DMT frightens you so this would seem pretty important.

Okay, okay, fair.

Theres the distinction between individual and universal mind so to what extent can it be just a reflection of something in your psyche? Thats something we are trying to separate to give objective views about 'the space'.

Most certainly there is! Something to be very mindful of!
And yeah, I'm trying to figure that part out too, but it doesn't seem like it's all sunshine and rainbows

Yes, but we cant help but apply many assumptions due to our conditioning. I respect however the attempt to maintain a neutral non judgmental and non assuming stance as much as possible, and think is the right approach even if ultimately impossible to do.

Thank you! Cuz it's hard

I suppose this is another broad one. I do think it transcends good and evil, but ultimately it wants us to perfect ourselves is my very strong sense.
However, the caveat is that this process may involve you suffering and even may not be perceived as 'good' for your individual identify in this bodily form, but for the larger picture it is.

This is a very useful framing, I will say. Perhaps bringing this mindset in will make things a little more... interesting.

Its actually 5-MeO thats the Mystery of mysteries dont you know. When we overcome this fear stuff we may graduate to that one day.

I wonder what @The Traveler would think about the initial claim

However, I have yet to do 5-MEO-DMT, but I was talking about the intersection of psychedelics and consciousness as the mystery of mysteries. I can't really jump in on the color comparison of psychedelics.

One love